From discuss@opengroupware.org Sat Nov 18 06:40:41 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 07:40:41 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk Message-ID: <20061118064041.57A6725110@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Hi all, as I am using Asterisk and OGo, i want to start a discussion about how ogo can be coupled with Asterisk in such a way that the sum is more than both parts alone. I don't want to start a technical discussion, on how to implement it, but just want to collect opinions, and suggestions for features that could be useful if implemented. I have a small php script developed, that can trigger the asterisk to make outgoing calls by clicking the telephones next to a telephone number in the ogo webui. That one is far from perfect and I am not really lucky with it. It can be downloaded from docs.opengroupware.org. Therefore I would raise a discussion on ogo <-> asterisk coupling, about features that can be added to enhance ogo when these two are coupled together. With a coupled OGo/Asterisk combination I can at least imagine the following features: 1. dial 'n click via the webinterface by clicking on a telephone number or the small telephone next to it 1.1 a popup could show up, containing a summary to the called number/person/company 1.2 the popup should allow making notes to the phone call, saving it in OGo 2. on incoming calls, open a popup window on the users desktop with information about the caller taken from the ogo contacts database 3. a call history tab for persons, specific for that person, showing date, time, who called who, and notes to the calls 4. a call history tab for companies, listing all calls to and from persons assigned to that company 5. for OGo accounts, a new tab, voice mail records should be added, where the user can manage its voice mails Anything else ideas about useful features or comments to the above ones? I hope to start a fruitful discussion and to get a comprehensive list of features that make sense. kind regards Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Sat Nov 18 10:09:02 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 5:09:02 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk In-Reply-To: <20061118064041.57A6725110@l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20061118064041.57A6725110@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <3765-SnapperMsg05076A73C1848C45@[70.217.232.35]> >as I am using Asterisk and OGo, i want to start a discussion about how ogo can >be coupled >with Asterisk in such a way that the sum is more than both parts alone. >I don't want to start a technical discussion, on how to implement it, but just >want to >collect opinions, and suggestions for features that could be useful if >implemented. >I have a small php script developed, that can trigger the asterisk to make >outgoing calls >by clicking the telephones next to a telephone number in the ogo webui. That one >is far >from perfect and I am not really lucky with it. It can be downloaded from >docs.opengroupware.org. Therefore I would raise a discussion on ogo <-> asterisk >coupling, >about features that can be added to enhance ogo when these two are coupled >together. >With a coupled OGo/Asterisk combination I can at least imagine the following >features: >1. dial 'n click via the webinterface by clicking on a telephone number or the >small > telephone next to it > 1.1 a popup could show up, containing a summary to the called >number/person/company > 1.2 the popup should allow making notes to the phone call, saving it in OGo There is an enhancement open for OGo about this, to make OGo support a journal like ACT. >2. on incoming calls, open a popup window on the users desktop with information >about the caller taken from the ogo contacts database I don't see this as part of OGo but as an application where OGo is a possible backend. >3. a call history tab for persons, specific for that person, showing date, time, >who > called who, and notes to the calls >4. a call history tab for companies, listing all calls to and from persons >assigned to > that compa These would/should be covered by a journal application. >5. for OGo accounts, a new tab, voice mail records should be added, where the >user can > manage its voice mails I completely disagree. The move is clearly toward "Unified Messaging". Integration for voice mail should be via the mail/imap server. Messages belong in the INBOX. From discuss@opengroupware.org Sun Nov 19 05:21:46 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 06:21:46 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk Message-ID: <20061119052146.CC4A525160@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Hi Adam, discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > >as I am using Asterisk and OGo, i want to start a discussion about how ogo can > >be coupled > >with Asterisk in such a way that the sum is more than both parts alone. > >I don't want to start a technical discussion, on how to implement it, but just > >want to > >collect opinions, and suggestions for features that could be useful if > >implemented. > >I have a small php script developed, that can trigger the asterisk to make > >outgoing calls > >by clicking the telephones next to a telephone number in the ogo webui. > That one > >is far > >from perfect and I am not really lucky with it. It can be downloaded from > >docs.opengroupware.org. Therefore I would raise a discussion on ogo <-> > asterisk > >coupling, > >about features that can be added to enhance ogo when these two are coupled > >together. > >With a coupled OGo/Asterisk combination I can at least imagine the > following > >features: > >1. dial 'n click via the webinterface by clicking on a telephone number or > the > >small > > telephone next to it > > 1.1 a popup could show up, containing a summary to the called > >number/person/company > > 1.2 the popup should allow making notes to the phone call, saving it in > OGo > > There is an enhancement open for OGo about this, to make OGo support a > journal like ACT. I was not aware about that enhancement request, and I have no clue what ACT is, but after taking a look at this bug report, yes, a general journal application, that can be used to track changed/communications on contacts/enterprises and changes on projects would be a great enhancement. At least that enh. request is a good place to store further ideas regarding that topic. > > >2. on incoming calls, open a popup window on the users desktop with > information > >about the caller taken from the ogo contacts database > > I don't see this as part of OGo but as an application where OGo is a > possible backend. sure, it was just an idea i had. when I see how ogo works, i think it would be hard to integrate it right now. If it would directly come from ogo, it would have to use some kind of an asynchronous web communication protocols, like these web2 thingies. > > >3. a call history tab for persons, specific for that person, showing date, > time, > >who > > called who, and notes to the calls > >4. a call history tab for companies, listing all calls to and from persons > >assigned to > > that compa > > These would/should be covered by a journal application. > > >5. for OGo accounts, a new tab, voice mail records should be added, where > the > >user can > > manage its voice mails > > I completely disagree. The move is clearly toward "Unified Messaging". > Integration for voice mail should be via the mail/imap server. Messages > belong in the INBOX. Ok, if configured, asterisk sends voice mails to the users e-mail addresses with a .wav file attached, containing the message. I get my voice mails via mail too. but personally I do not really like it that way, I like to have them separated from mail. On the other hand, for the ordinary user, you are right, keeping all communication in one place, makes life easier for the ordinary user. normally, the user listens via telephone to the voice messages, directly by using the phone when in office, the other messages, via mail are more or less only used when on the road and checking mail. Therefore it is impractical to send out all voice messages via mail and remove them immediately from the asterisk, removes the ability to listen to the messages via the telephone. just sending the messages to the user, without removing them from the asterisk, triggers MWI messages sent from the Asterisk to the phone, until the voice mail box will be called and the messages get removed. I think therefore it might be useful to have such an interface to manage these messages left at the asterisk box. then just another idea, what about configuring call forwarding, answering machine, ... would be great to have a tab for accounts in the personsUI, where accounts can configure this, as it is with the vacation tab for e-mail. kind regards sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Sun Nov 19 11:15:31 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:15:31 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk In-Reply-To: <20061119052146.CC4A525160@l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20061119052146.CC4A525160@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <847196E7-1D08-42F9-8447-7E6EC2E32CB0@opengroupware.org> On Nov 19, 2006, at 06:21, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > sure, it was just an idea i had. when I see how ogo works, i think > it would be hard to integrate it right now. If it would directly > come from ogo, it would have to use some kind of an asynchronous > web communication protocols, like these web2 thingies. Well, whats hard about using AJAX with OGo? Obviously one must ask first why you want to use it for what. Popping up panels is not impossible (eg the see the create-contact button in the apt editor), but quite often its not worth the effort and bad effects. >> I completely disagree. The move is clearly toward "Unified >> Messaging". >> Integration for voice mail should be via the mail/imap server. >> Messages >> belong in the INBOX. > Ok, if configured, asterisk sends voice mails to the users e-mail > addresses with a .wav file attached, containing the message. I get > my voice mails via mail too. butpersonally I do not really like it > that way, I like to have them separated from mail. The question is _why_ you do not like it that way. I agree with Adam, it naturally belongs into email. Most likely you don't like it because your email folders are spammed and not well separated. But it isn't hard to filter all voice mail messages into a specific IMAP4 folder (eg /VoiceInbox). I suppose what would be really cool is displaying specific IMAP4 folders (or even queries on those) as tabs in projects or contacts. Anyways, if Asterisk already has a voicebox which can be queried using a protocol it would be nice to integrate that. And most likely not hard either. > then just another idea, what about configuring call forwarding, > answering > machine, ... would be great to have a tab for accounts in the > personsUI, where accounts can configure this, as it is with the > vacation tab for e-mail. Yes, that would be nice. If Asterisk supports something similiar to Sieve. Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Nov 20 02:00:13 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 21:00:13 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk In-Reply-To: <20061119052146.CC4A525160@l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20061119052146.CC4A525160@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <20061119210013.sr3wbmn0y88o8w40@www.mormail.com> >>> 1.1 a popup could show up, containing a summary to the called >>> number/person/company >>> 1.2 the popup should allow making notes to the phone call, saving it in >>> OGo >> There is an enhancement open for OGo about this, to make OGo support a >> journal like ACT. http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D39 http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D370 http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D599 > I was not aware about that enhancement request, and I have no clue =20 > what ACT is, A very popular general-purpose CRM PC application. >> >2. on incoming calls, open a popup window on the users desktop with >> information >> >about the caller taken from the ogo contacts database >> I don't see this as part of OGo but as an application where OGo is a >> possible backend. sure, it was just an idea i had. when I see how =20 >> ogo works, i think it would be hard t > integrate it right now. If it would directly come from ogo, it would =20 > have to use some kind > of an asynchronous web communication protocols, like these web2 thingies. Seems like a listener that looked up the info in OGo and sent the =20 message to a user via IM would be simpler and more reliable; and it =20 would work without the user being logged into the OGo webui. >>> 5. for OGo accounts, a new tab, voice mail records should be added, wher= e >>> the user can manage its voice mails >> I completely disagree. The move is clearly toward "Unified Messaging". >> Integration for voice mail should be via the mail/imap server. Messages >> belong in the INBOX. > Ok, if configured, asterisk sends voice mails to the users e-mail =20 > addresses with a .wav file attached, containing the message. I get =20 > my voice mails via mail too. but personally I do not really like it =20 > that way, I like to have them separated from mail. But most users don't, and don't want to. > normally, the user listens via telephone to the voice messages, directly b= y > using the phone when in office, the other messages, via mail are =20 > more or less only used when on the road and checking mail. > Therefore it is impractical to send out all voice messages via mail =20 > and remove them immediately from the asterisk, removes the ability =20 > to listen to the messages viathe telephone. just sending te messages =20 > to the user, without removing them from the asterisk, All this is because Asterisk and the mail server are *NOT* integrated. =20 Sending a copy of the voice mail as a MP3/WAV as an attachment is a =20 hack - not integration. The IMAP server should include the voice mail messages from the =20 mailbox in the messages returned to the client or a proxy service =20 needs to federate them. Most commercial solutions do the latter, via =20 a plugin to Outlook (which is why they only work on Outlook). From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Nov 20 06:07:46 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 07:07:46 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk Message-ID: <20061120060747.253C022E94@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Hi, discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > >>> 1.1 a popup could show up, containing a summary to the called > >>> number/person/company > >>> 1.2 the popup should allow making notes to the phone call, saving it in > >>> OGo > >> There is an enhancement open for OGo about this, to make OGo support a > >> journal like ACT. > > http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/show bug.cgi?id=39 > http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/show bug.cgi?id=370 > http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/show bug.cgi?id=599 > > > I was not aware about that enhancement request, and I have no clue > > what ACT is, > > A very popular general-purpose CRM PC application. ah, ok. > > >> >2. on incoming calls, open a popup window on the users desktop with > >> information > >> >about the caller taken from the ogo contacts database > >> I don't see this as part of OGo but as an application where OGo is a > >> possible backend. sure, it was just an idea i had. when I see how > >> ogo works, i think it would be hard t > > integrate it right now. If it would directly come from ogo, it would > > have to use some kind > > of an asynchronous web communication protocols, like these web2 thingies. > > Seems like a listener that looked up the info in OGo and sent the > message to a user via IM would be simpler and more reliable; and it > would work without the user being logged into the OGo webui. I have a script written in php, to generate a popup on the users desktop on incoming calls. Astrisk has the notify module, that sends out basic info to the called person about the incoming call. I have a script running locally on the asterisk, receiving the info, digging into the ogo database for more, and then sending it to the client, where a similar php script listens and takes the data, creates a .html file on the filesystem and uses a web browser to open the .html file. > > >>> 5. for OGo accounts, a new tab, voice mail records should be added, where > >>> the user can manage its voice mails > >> I completely disagree. The move is clearly toward "Unified Messaging". > >> Integration for voice mail should be via the mail/imap server. Messages > >> belong in the INBOX. > > Ok, if configured, asterisk sends voice mails to the users e-mail > > addresses with a .wav file attached, containing the message. I get > > my voice mails via mail too. but personally I do not really like it > > that way, I like to have them separated from mail. > > But most users don't, and don't want to. yes, therefore I think, in the personsUI, having a tab, "voice mails", where these users could manage their voice mails would be great. maybe activateable via a Default, as an alternative to managing the mails in the imap server. > > > normally, the user listens via telephone to the voice messages, directly by > > using the phone when in office, the other messages, via mail are > > more or less only used when on the road and checking mail. > > Therefore it is impractical to send out all voice messages via mail > > and remove them immediately from the asterisk, removes the ability > > to listen to the messages viathe telephone. just sending te messages > > to the user, without removing them from the asterisk, > > All this is because Asterisk and the mail server are *NOT* integrated. > Sending a copy of the voice mail as a MP3/WAV as an attachment is a > hack - not integration. exactly. if it only were recieving voice messages from the telephone system, that would easily filterable, due to the subject of the mail. but when these mails get forwarded between users, the messages will end up in the inbox, in a subfolder, catched by other filters than the one for voice mails.... I think adding mail headers to the mail, e.g.: X-Asterisk-VoiceMail X-Asterisk-Caller X-Asterisk-Callee and maybe others, that can be filtered via sieve filters, would be useful. maybe then defining one subfolder of the users inbox as special "Voicemail" root folder, so that all folders below it, are considered containing voice mails. entering one of these folders will change the view, from a mail list, to a special voice-mail list. all incoming messages could then be filtered via sieve and put into the top folder of the voice mail store. other voice mail filters could only work in this folder, not in the INBOX of the user. These could be configured on the filter tab of the ogo webmail application. When a user edits, forwards, ... a voice message, then it should keep the X-Asterisk headers intact. kind regards Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Nov 20 12:40:56 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (chris h) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 07:40:56 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk In-Reply-To: <20061120060747.253C022E94@l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20061120060747.253C022E94@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <200611200740.56272.chris123@magma.ca> On Monday 20 November 2006 01:07, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > yes, therefore I think, in the personsUI, having a tab, "voice mails", > where these users > could manage their voice mails would be great. maybe activateable via a > Default, as an > alternative to managing the mails in the imap server. Asterisk ships with a program to have voicemail accessible via a web front end. See http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/index.php?page=Asterisk+gui+vmail.cgi as voicemail is stored in /var/spool/asterisk/voicemail/ this could easily be made accessible via OGo by various means as they are simple files (assuming one has the talent to do so..:)) Alternatively this spool can be monitored for new content as well, which I believe asterisk already does. Finally as a basic fallback a simple Iframe should be able to render the output of this program in OGo. > When a user edits, forwards, ... a voice message, then it should keep the > X-Asterisk > headers intact. In Canada at least its considered very poor practice to forward voice mail to a third party as its a breach of privacy and business ethics. If however you mean forwarding the voicemail to yourself on a different number, phone or email address then asterisk already has this capability. For example my office number is A, my alternate number at the office is B, my cell number is C and my email address (dedicated for voice mail) is D. Asterisk can be managed to try all those contact numbers sequentially with a final fall back of sending a voicemail to my email address should all others default to no answer. I think what is needed is a brief discussion on the management of commercial/business voice mail, some standard practices or protocals and then a discussion on implementation. Thanks for starting this thread. /ch From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Nov 20 12:52:05 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:52:05 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk In-Reply-To: <200611200740.56272.chris123@magma.ca> References: <20061120060747.253C022E94@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611200740.56272.chris123@magma.ca> Message-ID: On Nov 20, 2006, at 13:40, chris h wrote: > I think what is needed is a brief discussion on the management of > commercial/business voice mail, some standard practices or > protocals and then a discussion on implementation. Hm, yes. Personally I'm going to approach this from the technical (that is: incorrect ;-) side. Its still on my tasklist to implement the Asterisk dialout feature and as part of this I'm going to check what other features the API provides (and implement "low hanging fruits" :-) I'm not really a fan of retrieving vmail manually from the filesystem. Though it might be viable. Wrt to adding tabs to the person or enterprise viewer: actually my biggest concern is that the tabs will wrap or make the page scroll! :-) We already have plenty of tabs which makes the page really "wide" (well, not a big deal with all those widescreen displays ;-) What would be cool is a new UI "wrapper" element (similiar to SkyTabView/SkyTabItem) which allows to arrange page sections in either tabs or collapsibles [or xyz]. Actually this shouldn't be too hard to implement though pages can get slow if users will put too much information on a single one (eg all current tabs into a single one :-) Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Nov 20 14:57:16 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 15:57:16 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk Message-ID: <20061120145716.B5BA8251E9@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Hi, discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > On Monday 20 November 2006 01:07, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > > > yes, therefore I think, in the personsUI, having a tab, "voice mails", > > where these users > > could manage their voice mails would be great. maybe activateable via a > > Default, as an > > alternative to managing the mails in the imap server. > > Asterisk ships with a program to have voicemail accessible via a web front > end. See > > http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/index.php?page=Asterisk+gui+vmail.cgi > > as voicemail is stored in /var/spool/asterisk/voicemail/ this could easily be > made accessible via OGo by various means as they are simple files (assuming > one has the talent to do so..:)) > > Alternatively this spool can be monitored for new content as well, which I > believe asterisk already does. Finally as a basic fallback a simple Iframe > should be able to render the output of this program in OGo. well, but will it then have the same look 'n feel like the rest of the ogo webinterface, e.g. using the ogo css styles? > > > > When a user edits, forwards, ... a voice message, then it should keep the > > X-Asterisk > > headers intact. > > In Canada at least its considered very poor practice to forward voice mail to > a third party as its a breach of privacy and business ethics. If however you > mean forwarding the voicemail to yourself on a different number, phone or > email address then asterisk already has this capability. For example my > office number is A, my alternate number at the office is B, my cell number is > C and my email address (dedicated for voice mail) is D. in general, you are perfectly right, but if a callee activated call forwarding to a secretary, and that secretary activated her voice mail box, then the voice message might end up in her voice mail box, and at least she has to forward it to her boss. > > Asterisk can be managed to try all those contact numbers sequentially with a > final fall back of sending a voicemail to my email address should all others > default to no answer. > > I think what is needed is a brief discussion on the management of > commercial/business voice mail, some standard practices or protocals and then > a discussion on implementation. yes, makes a lot of sense ;) as mentioned above, at least a secretary has sometimes to forward a voice mail to other users mailboxes. this is done right now by calling the voice mail box, and then in the advanced options, she has the possibility to forward it. also subfolders in the voice mail box, will be useful too, not to forget the ability to filter voice mails like e-mails, regarding called number, callee, ... and to drop them in a subfolder instead of the inbox. it would be great to be allow to set an expiration time to a give subfolder, to expire messages older than that automatically. > > Thanks for starting this thread. no problem, I like both softwares, and just want them to work together (: Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Nov 20 15:19:44 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:19:44 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk Message-ID: <20061120151944.AED4C251E9@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Hi, discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > On Nov 20, 2006, at 13:40, chris h wrote: > > I think what is needed is a brief discussion on the management of > > commercial/business voice mail, some standard practices or > > protocals and then a discussion on implementation. > > Hm, yes. Personally I'm going to approach this from the technical > (that is: incorrect ;-) side. Its still on my tasklist to implement > the Asterisk dialout feature and as part of this I'm going to check > what other features the API provides (and implement "low hanging > fruits" :-) > > I'm not really a fan of retrieving vmail manually from the > filesystem. Though it might be viable. getting a bit more technically: the asterisk can nfs export the voice mail directory structure, ogo could import it, to have access to the voice-mails. or in the other direction, ogo exports a directory, and the asterisk imports it to store the messages on it. However, I wouldn't go and copy them. Or the messages could be forwarded to the users mail account, Asterisk has to add some special mail headers, like X-Asterisk-Callee: X-Asterisk-Caller: X-Asterisk-Duration: and so on, so that 1. other icons can be used for voice mails (to see at a first glance which is a voice mail and which is e-mail) 2. applying filters would be easy 3. these header lines shall be kept intact when forwarding the message to another user not only voice mails, but also call recordings shall then be handled the same way as the voice mails. > > > Wrt to adding tabs to the person or enterprise viewer: actually my > biggest concern is that the tabs will wrap or make the page > scroll! :-) We already have plenty of tabs which makes the page > really "wide" (well, not a big deal with all those widescreen > displays ;-) > > What would be cool is a new UI "wrapper" element (similiar to > SkyTabView/SkyTabItem) which allows to arrange page sections in > either tabs or collapsibles [or xyz]. Actually this shouldn't be too > hard to implement though pages can get slow if users will put too > much information on a single one (eg all current tabs into a single > one :-) well, a completely different topic, but this explains my why ogo does send a status message for every folder to the imap server when opening the search or vacation tab in ogo web mail. kind regards Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 21 15:27:13 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:27:13 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk In-Reply-To: <200611200740.56272.chris123@magma.ca> References: <20061120060747.253C022E94@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611200740.56272.chris123@magma.ca> Message-ID: <20061121102713.1rdpiybu3kg0gco4@www.mormail.com> >> When a user edits, forwards, ... a voice message, then it should keep the >> X-Asterisk headers intact. > In Canada at least its considered very poor practice to forward voice mail= to > a third party as its a breach of privacy and business ethics. If however y= ou > mean forwarding the voicemail to yourself on a different number, phone or > email address then asterisk already has this capability. For example my > office number is A, my alternate number at the office is B, my cell number= is > C and my email address (dedicated for voice mail) is D. I think forwarding voice mails within an organization is actually =20 extremely common. > I think what is needed is a brief discussion on the management of > commercial/business voice mail, some standard practices or protocals and t= hen > a discussion on implementation. What do you want to know? I'm familiar with Cisco's AVID (sp?) and =20 Nortel's CallPilot. Cisco uses Exchange for voice mail and is =20 proprietary from top to bottom, lock-stock-and-barrell, despite all =20 their noise about standards and openness. Nortel's CallPilot, which =20 has an absolutely enourmous install base [at least in the US], is more =20 interesting. CallPilot actually stores voice mail on the phonesystem =20 and accesses the user's mailbox via..... IMAP! I can point Evolution =20 at CallPilot and see my messages; the only drawback is that the =20 actuall voice mail attachments are in a proprietary format (VBK) that =20 requires a [free] player that only runs on Win32. The outlook plugin =20 used be most people uses a set of IMAP extension commands (X-*) to =20 manipulate the voice mails in voice-mailish ways such as forwarding or =20 ringing a phone and allowing the message to be played over the handset =20 (useful if your PC doesn't have sound, etc...). Other than the =20 proprietary message format [which I've spent a fair amount of time =20 trying to crack, with no luck so far] it is a very nice model. From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 21 15:29:10 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:29:10 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk In-Reply-To: References: <20061120060747.253C022E94@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611200740.56272.chris123@magma.ca> Message-ID: <20061121102910.qmxjryhg8c4csc8c@www.mormail.com> > Wrt to adding tabs to the person or enterprise viewer: actually my > biggest concern is that the tabs will wrap or make the page scroll! :-) > We already have plenty of tabs which makes the page really "wide" > (well, not a big deal with all those widescreen displays ;-) I agree, I think in general there are already too many tabs. > What would be cool is a new UI "wrapper" element (similiar to > SkyTabView/SkyTabItem) which allows to arrange page sections in either > tabs or collapsibles [or xyz]. Actually this shouldn't be too hard to > implement though pages can get slow if users will put too much > information on a single one (eg all current tabs into a single one :-) That would be very cool. From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 21 15:37:47 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:37:47 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk In-Reply-To: <20061120145716.B5BA8251E9@l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20061120145716.B5BA8251E9@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <20061121103747.v78b5k2wsg04s8ks@www.mormail.com> >>> When a user edits, forwards, ... a voice message, then it should keep th= e >>> X-Asterisk headers intact. >> In Canada at least its considered very poor practice to forward =20 >> voice mail to >> a third party as its a breach of privacy and business ethics. If however = you >> mean forwarding the voicemail to yourself on a different number, phone or >> email address then asterisk already has this capability. For example my >> office number is A, my alternate number at the office is B, my cell =20 >> number is C and my email address (dedicated for voice mail) is D. > in general, you are perfectly right, but if a callee activated call =20 > forwarding to a secretary, and that secretary activated her voice =20 > mail box, then the voice message might end up in her voice mail box, =20 > and at least she has to forward it to her boss. In all but the smallest organizations a large percentage of voice =20 mails will be of internal origin, and forwarding is a normal practice. >> I think what is needed is a brief discussion on the management of >> commercial/business voice mail, some standard practices or =20 >> protocals and then >> a discussion on implementation. > yes, makes a lot of sense ;) > as mentioned above, at least a secretary has sometimes to forward a =20 > voice mail to other users mailboxes. this is done right now by =20 > calling the voice mail box, and then in the > advanced options, she has the possibility to forward it. I've never used Asterisk for voice mail, but on all commerical =20 systems you just hit something like "2" while listening to a voice =20 mail and then enter the mailbox to forward it to. > also subfolders in the voice mail box, will be useful too, not to forget t= he > ability to filter voice mails like e-mails, regarding called number, =20 > callee, ... and to drop them in a subfolder instead of the inbox. Maybe, but these are featues almost no 'normal user' uses. Most =20 people walk through there voice mail inbox sequentially and either =20 save, forward, or delete a message. Save operaes simply as a way to =20 move a message out of the inbox to a "saved" folder; with ~300 voice =20 mail users I think I've seen less than a dozen mailboxes with =20 subfolders beyond "Saved". It is the nature of voice mails that they =20 are usually highly context sensitive and of little archival value. > it would be great to be allow to set an expiration time to a give =20 > subfolder, to expire > messages older than that automatically. If you forward the messages to an IMAP server then this is already =20 supported; at least by Cyrus. If the voice mail messages are in the filesystem then cron and the =20 find command should be adequate. :) From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 21 16:09:49 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (chris h) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:09:49 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk In-Reply-To: <20061121103747.v78b5k2wsg04s8ks@www.mormail.com> References: <20061120145716.B5BA8251E9@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <20061121103747.v78b5k2wsg04s8ks@www.mormail.com> Message-ID: <200611211109.49518.chris123@magma.ca> On Tuesday 21 November 2006 10:37, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > In all but the smallest organizations a large percentage of voice > mails will be of internal origin, and forwarding is a normal practice. Interesting. I worked for two of the largest corps in Canada for over 15 years. Forwarding voice mail from the recipient to someone else was considered; (1) rude, (2) a violation of privacy legislation, (3) contrary to corp policies and was "verboten". Sure it was done but not indiscriminately. The preferred method was to call the person over to who you wanted to forward the message too and listen to it on speaker phone together, typically followed by..."so what do we do now..:)". I worked for eng consulting firms. > >> I think what is needed is a brief discussion on the management of > >> commercial/business voice mail, some standard practices or > >> protocals and then > >> a discussion on implementation. > > > > yes, makes a lot of sense ;) > > as mentioned above, at least a secretary has sometimes to forward a > > voice mail to other users mailboxes. this is done right now by > > calling the voice mail box, and then in the > > advanced options, she has the possibility to forward it. Perhaps were are talking about different things. What I am used too is a receptionist routing an incomming call to the recipient for the purpose of contact or leaving a message. Voice messages are almost never left with the receptionist in the scenarios Im used too. On the recipient end, the comments above apply. > If the voice mail messages are in the filesystem then cron and the > find command should be adequate. :) Yes exactly. /ch From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 21 16:15:58 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (chris h) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:15:58 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk In-Reply-To: <20061121102713.1rdpiybu3kg0gco4@www.mormail.com> References: <20061120060747.253C022E94@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611200740.56272.chris123@magma.ca> <20061121102713.1rdpiybu3kg0gco4@www.mormail.com> Message-ID: <200611211115.58236.chris123@magma.ca> On Tuesday 21 November 2006 10:27, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > > I think what is needed is a brief discussion on the management of > > commercial/business voice mail, some standard practices or protocals and > > then a discussion on implementation. > > What do you want to know? I'm familiar with Cisco's AVID (sp?) and > Nortel's CallPilot. That's extremely important information. However is a discussion on the value or non value of technical hardware implementations. What I was referring too is a discussion on what is considered standard practice for managing voicemail from a corp or client perspective. In other words a high level design discussion. Obviousely as you pointed out, policies and procedures for managing voice mail are different in different locals so for an international project like OGo to make such an implementation viable, there needs to be (a) some flexability in the design or (b) a design that can be allow for user input to align the workflow of voicemail message to meet specific corp criteria. Should a singular method be developed, its implementation would be limited as it forces users to comply with a technical solution that may or may not be consistant with internal requirements or policies and therefor not get implemented. Just my 2 cents (cdn)...:) /ch From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 21 16:38:39 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:38:39 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk Message-ID: <20061121163839.7DED0251EA@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Hi, > > In all but the smallest organizations a large percentage of voice > mails will be of internal origin, and forwarding is a normal practice. > > >> I think what is needed is a brief discussion on the management of > >> commercial/business voice mail, some standard practices or > >> protocals and then > >> a discussion on implementation. > > yes, makes a lot of sense ;) > > as mentioned above, at least a secretary has sometimes to forward a > > voice mail to other users mailboxes. this is done right now by > > calling the voice mail box, and then in the > > advanced options, she has the possibility to forward it. > > I've never used Asterisk for voice mail, but on all commerical > systems you just hit something like "2" while listening to a voice > mail and then enter the mailbox to forward it to. yes, I do not know the exact number, but that is the way to forward a message while listening to it. > > > also subfolders in the voice mail box, will be useful too, not to forget the > > ability to filter voice mails like e-mails, regarding called number, > > callee, ... and to drop them in a subfolder instead of the inbox. > > Maybe, but these are featues almost no 'normal user' uses. Most > people walk through there voice mail inbox sequentially and either > save, forward, or delete a message. Save operaes simply as a way to > move a message out of the inbox to a "saved" folder; with ~300 voice > mail users I think I've seen less than a dozen mailboxes with > subfolders beyond "Saved". It is the nature of voice mails that they > are usually highly context sensitive and of little archival value. > > > it would be great to be allow to set an expiration time to a give > > subfolder, to expire > > messages older than that automatically. > > If you forward the messages to an IMAP server then this is already > supported; at least by Cyrus. > > If the voice mail messages are in the filesystem then cron and the > find command should be adequate. :) yes, and afaik, just removing the files shouldn't harm the asterisk. kind regards sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Nov 23 07:18:07 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:18:07 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY Message-ID: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Hi, I would like to summarize the opinions of integrating OGo and Asterisk, independend on the technical implementation. Then move it to the developer@ list, for a technical discussion about implementation possibilities and details. - It should be possible to trigger an outgoing call from the telephone of the user, by clicking any kind of telephone number in the ogo webui - In and outgoing calls should be recorded and viewable in a log via webui - the logs should be searchable like advanced searches - when dialling a number, a popup window should show up, to allow to make notes to the call, these notes shall appear in the above mentioned log - the voice mail messages should be manageable, either via an extra doc application, a tab in the usersUI, in imap, in the mailUI, one or all, enableable via Defaults to keep it flexible - it shall be configurable to allow forwarding of voice messages or to forbid it. - the call logs should be more general, tracking not only telephone calls, but e-mail communication too. - phone recordings should be manageable via the webinterface too. did I miss something, please add it to the list? kind regards Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Nov 23 13:49:34 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (chris h) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:49:34 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY In-Reply-To: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <200611230849.34559.chris123@magma.ca> On Thursday 23 November 2006 02:18, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > did I miss something, please add it to the list? One option that would be very helpful would be an option to tag a voicemail message and associate it with a particular task or project similar how contacts and tasks can be associated with a project. The reason for this is simple. In an engineering firm for example, all outbound and inbound calls are briefly summarized in your own personal journal. Very short statements giving time, date and brief summary. This journal may be electronic or paper. The reason for this is simple. Should a client pursue a dispute and elevate it to a level of legal challenge the only evidence accepted in court is your personal journal and of course any further supporting documentation in hard copy. In short your personal journal is your best legal defense and best friend when it comes to managing projects. Example daily log entry into my personal journal. Phone log: Mr. So_and_So called on July 12 @ 14;20 to discuss the lateness of the project. I advised him that its best to discuss this matter with the Project Manager as I am only one of the consultants on the job and not responsible for the over all schedule. Followup: PM contacted 12 July @ 14:30 that Mr. So_and_So called to review the project schedule. HTH's /ch From discuss@opengroupware.org Fri Nov 24 12:16:26 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 07:16:26 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY In-Reply-To: <200611230849.34559.chris123@magma.ca> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611230849.34559.chris123@magma.ca> Message-ID: <20061124071626.z52avuo084k8wcgk@www.mormail.com> >> did I miss something, please add it to the list? > One option that would be very helpful would be an option to tag a voicemai= l > message and associate it with a particular task or project similar how > contacts and tasks can be associated with a project. If the voice mail is an e-mail attachment this is already possible; =20 simply move the attachment into the documents of a project (already =20 supported) and possibly create an object link. > The reason for this is simple. In an engineering firm for example, all > outbound and inbound calls are briefly summarized in your own personal > journal. Very short statements giving time, date and brief summary. This > journal may be electronic or paper. The reason for this is simple. Should = a > client pursue a dispute and elevate it to a level of legal challenge the o= nly > evidence accepted in court is your personal journal and of course any furt= her > supporting documentation in hard copy. In short your personal journal is y= our > best legal defense and best friend when it comes to managing projects. > Example daily log entry into my personal journal. What it seems like to me is that this could be solved either with the =20 journal - http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D39 http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D370 - and/or - http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D535 (making =20 comments on documents). I am more and more thinking, not because of just this but other things =20 as well, that a general purpose journal application is what would be =20 most generally useful. Making entries with just owner, date stamp, =20 and comment and allow entries to have object links to other entries. =20 This would allow 'comments' on just about everything in one fell =20 swoop; it would also be easy to read/view/display via RSS or one of =20 the standard BLOG APIs. http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D235 http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D675 http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D1375 Add an enhancement to add permissions to journal entries an you could =20 use it for lots of things; users could use it as a simple means to =20 publish information to other users. Doesn't current versions of Outlook even support a journal? I think it is very important to keep things general-purpose; if =20 people need very specific functionality OGo provides to means for =20 users to construct front-ends to the general purpose functionality via =20 an intranet or other means. From discuss@opengroupware.org Fri Nov 24 15:16:34 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (chris h) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 10:16:34 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY In-Reply-To: <20061124071626.z52avuo084k8wcgk@www.mormail.com> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611230849.34559.chris123@magma.ca> <20061124071626.z52avuo084k8wcgk@www.mormail.com> Message-ID: <200611241016.34104.chris123@magma.ca> On Friday 24 November 2006 07:16, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > Doesn't current versions of Outlook even support a journal? Yes, and so do most of the linux clients as well. On Mac's I dont know. Integration with OGo is a completely different matter OTH. > I think it is very important to keep things general-purpose; if > people need very specific functionality OGo provides to means for > users to construct front-ends to the general purpose functionality via > an intranet or other means. Reading your/this discussion has been most interesting and well thought out. I agree a journal (as an add on or other) is probably the correct facility to accomplish this requirement as well as others. Btw, blogs are not really that bad when properly used assuming that the editor has received a basic level of training? /ch From discuss@opengroupware.org Fri Nov 24 16:11:35 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:11:35 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY In-Reply-To: <200611241016.34104.chris123@magma.ca> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611230849.34559.chris123@magma.ca> <20061124071626.z52avuo084k8wcgk@www.mormail.com> <200611241016.34104.chris123@magma.ca> Message-ID: <1164384695.3734.13.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> > > Doesn't current versions of Outlook even support a journal? > Yes, and so do most of the linux clients as well. I was just thinking that this is about the only feature completely unsupported in ZideLook; maybe if it was added to OGo it might someday get supported in ZideLook. Would be nice. But of course the ZideLook people will decide all that on their own. > On Mac's I dont know. > Integration with OGo is a completely different matter OTH. Yep. But I don't see that as a problem there are already lots of quasi-standards relating to working with a journal. > I think it is very important to keep things general-purpose; if > > people need very specific functionality OGo provides to means for > > users to construct front-ends to the general purpose functionality via > > an intranet or other means. > Reading your/this discussion has been most interesting and well thought out. I > agree a journal (as an add on or other) is probably the correct facility to > accomplish this requirement as well as others. I've got bits of journal support (LSNewJournalEntryCommand, LSSetJournalEntryCommand, LSDeleteJournalEntryCommand, etc...) - working out exactly how OGo put all the layers together is interesting. :) But I'm just interested in this for ZOGI (http://code.google.com/p/zogi/) & Consonance (http://code.google.com/p/consonance/). If someone is interested in adding a journal application to the WebUI that would be very cool. > Btw, blogs are not really that bad when properly used assuming that the editor > has received a basic level of training? I wasn't dissing BLOGs with "the standard BLOG APIs" I was referring to the standard BLOG APIs such as Blogger (already supported to some degree in ZideStore, see ZideStore/Protocols/Blogger in the source). Everyone implements these at least a wee-bit differently. Of course the same charge can be leveled against XML-RPC as well. (Blogger is theoretically replaced by ATOM - http://code.blogger.com/archives/atom-docs.html See http://www.blogger.com/developers/api/1_docs/ ) But that is all really an aside to this discussion. From discuss@opengroupware.org Sat Nov 25 01:19:08 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 02:19:08 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY In-Reply-To: <20061124071626.z52avuo084k8wcgk@www.mormail.com> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611230849.34559.chris123@magma.ca> <20061124071626.z52avuo084k8wcgk@www.mormail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 24, 2006, at 13:16, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > I am more and more thinking, not because of just this but other > things as well, that a general purpose journal application is what > would be most generally useful. Making entries with just owner, > date stamp, and comment and allow entries to have object links to > other entries. This would allow 'comments' on just about > everything in one fell swoop; it would also be easy to read/view/ > display via RSS or one of the standard BLOG APIs. I'm not entirely sure about how the use case for that looks like. Could you outline a scenario? (for that general purpose thingy) Most objects in OGo already do have a "journal" (tasks, appointments, projects). I suspect whats actually needed is some kind of "reporting" frontend here? Possibly just an RSS feed which cumulates the "notes" of the individual object types? Personally I'm not a big fan of unstructured data input. I'm rather keen on making structured input easier than on adding facilities to enable unstructured data. Eg while generic object links can be handy hacks sometimes (I _never_ use them), the structured links are much more valuable. Anyways, I'm not sure how all that relates to Asterisk :-) IMHO communication (in business groupware ..) always needs to be associated with at least on "goal" aka project. Now we might want to optimize for the fact that you usually start out with just one "goal" per contact. In fact thats why we have those "fake" projects auto- created for enterprise contacts. Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Sat Nov 25 01:23:20 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 02:23:20 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY In-Reply-To: <200611241016.34104.chris123@magma.ca> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611230849.34559.chris123@magma.ca> <20061124071626.z52avuo084k8wcgk@www.mormail.com> <200611241016.34104.chris123@magma.ca> Message-ID: <1EAA5B11-AA45-47A7-A454-9FBF0CFF1F8D@opengroupware.org> On Nov 24, 2006, at 16:16, chris h wrote: >> I think it is very important to keep things general-purpose; if >> people need very specific functionality OGo provides to means for >> users to construct front-ends to the general purpose functionality >> via >> an intranet or other means. > Btw, blogs are not really that bad when properly used assuming that > the editor > has received a basic level of training? Yes, and IMHO this wasn't Adam's point. I think his point is that a blogging application would be written as a separate app on top of the OGo infrastructure. Eg a blog could be easily build on top of an OGo project. Which in fact is something I very much consider. Its more or less my idea for the future of OGo, producing more focused interfaces on top of the OGo infrastructure. Aka the "groupware construction kit" ;-) Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Nov 27 08:55:00 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:55:00 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY Message-ID: <20061127085500.93E64254C9@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Hi, I updated the list, > > - It should be possible to trigger an outgoing call from the telephone of the > user, by > clicking any kind of telephone number in the ogo webui > - In and outgoing calls should be recorded and viewable in a log via webui > - the logs should be searchable like advanced searches > - when dialling a number, a popup window should show up, to allow to make notes > to the > call, these notes shall appear in the above mentioned log > - the voice mail messages should be manageable, either via an extra doc > application, a > tab in the usersUI, in imap, in the mailUI, one or all, enableable via > Defaults to keep > it flexible > - it shall be configurable to allow forwarding of voice messages or to forbid > it. > - the call logs should be more general, tracking not only telephone calls, but > e-mail > communication too. > - phone recordings should be manageable via the webinterface too. - having a general journal application, it could be used to create the above mentioned communication log - possibility to tag and move/copy/link the voice message to a project anything else, if not, I would like to move this to the develpoers list. kind regards Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Nov 27 16:40:39 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:40:39 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] In-Reply-To: <1EAA5B11-AA45-47A7-A454-9FBF0CFF1F8D@opengroupware.org> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611230849.34559.chris123@magma.ca> <20061124071626.z52avuo084k8wcgk@www.mormail.com> <200611241016.34104.chris123@magma.ca> <1EAA5B11-AA45-47A7-A454-9FBF0CFF1F8D@opengroupware.org> Message-ID: <1164645639.3892.27.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> > >> I think it is very important to keep things general-purpose; if > >> people need very specific functionality OGo provides to means for > >> users to construct front-ends to the general purpose functionality > >> via > >> an intranet or other means. > > Btw, blogs are not really that bad when properly used assuming that > > the editor > > has received a basic level of training? > Yes, and IMHO this wasn't Adam's point. I think his point is that a > blogging application would be written as a separate app on top of the > OGo infrastructure. Eg a blog could be easily build on top of an OGo > project. > Which in fact is something I very much consider. Its more or less my > idea for the future of OGo, producing more focused interfaces on top > of the OGo infrastructure. > Aka the "groupware construction kit" ;-) Agree; but I'm curious as to your thoughts concerning how to store the content of something like a journal/blog. 1.) Store the entire BLOG as a document; simple but seems hard to edit. 2.) Store the BLOG as a "folder" in a project, each file in the folder being presented as an "article" or "entry". Also simple but hard to sort and/or search. [ FYI to readers: CREATE TABLE note () INHERITS(document); CREATE TABLE doc () INHERITS(document); ] 3.) Store the BLOG in notes. Each note being an article or entry. Notes provide title, author, modification and creation time. There is a "file_type" attribute; if this is other than "txt" does the note still appear in the WebUI? Sort of, if the file type is something like "xml" or "fred" (just to test something completely bogus) then the title/author/time-stamp appear in the WebUI but the content is not rendered; one can still click the edit button and is presented with an edit page where the content is blank. I suppose this is really the same as #2 since notes are documents; I would have thought that setting is_note = 0 would make something not show up as a note, but it still does. [ And here I was thinking I was starting to get what was going on - the parent_document_id of the note is 12760 which is the root folder of the project ( is_folder = 1 & parent_document_id IS NULL ) but setting is_note = 0 doesn't make it show up as a document even though it is in the document table ] From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Nov 27 17:00:17 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:00:17 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] In-Reply-To: References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611230849.34559.chris123@magma.ca> <20061124071626.z52avuo084k8wcgk@www.mormail.com> Message-ID: <1164646817.3892.48.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 02:19 +0100, Helge Hess wrote: > On Nov 24, 2006, at 13:16, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > > I am more and more thinking, not because of just this but other > > things as well, that a general purpose journal application is what > > would be most generally useful. Making entries with just owner, > > date stamp, and comment and allow entries to have object links to > > other entries. This would allow 'comments' on just about > > everything in one fell swoop; it would also be easy to read/view/ > > display via RSS or one of the standard BLOG APIs. > I'm not entirely sure about how the use case for that looks like. > Could you outline a scenario? (for that general purpose thingy) I have three jounal/BLOG-esque applications: 1.) For CRM we record a contact journal for a contact and/or enterprise. Currently we store this in a separate database, which works but is messy and make writing consumers irritating (get this here, get that there, etc...). We store the OGo Id in the external database and the application has to jump back and forth. For this case it is pretty simple: {Date}, {Object Id}, {Comment}, {Commentor}, & {Type}. Type relates closely to something like appointment type: meeting, call, etc... In retrospect I could store this in the schedular since I think I can retrieve all the 'events' for a contact or enterprise in a given date range. For some idiotic reason I didn't think you could create an appointment with no account participants; so this one is really a brain-fart on my part. I can't see any reason why that wouldn't work. By only question would be how to properly store events that only have a date and no time; as all day events? Even though there may be multiple ones? The CRMy people really don't do time, just dates - I got real push back on that one even for the crappy solution we have now. 2. A work journal. This is for lawyer and engineering types. This seems like it would be related to a project, but the end-user really looks at it as a journal. So some way to query and present a view of all entries by a particular user is needed, which may traverse multiple "projects" (at least how the end-user is thinking of the concept of "project"). This is the one that seems really arbitrary - and they REALLY want it a certain way [ lawyers and engineers... if you haven't had the pleasure... :) ] Presented something like {Title][Date] [Notation............. .......... .......... ] Related Items: {Project Link}, {Task Link}, ... ... This is why I think object-links are useful in this application; and it is already very simple to retrieve links for an object (make a special "BLOG Entry" link sort of like the assigned task link). This is the one I can't see how to store in OGo as-is. Unless each user has a project that is there BLOG; seems overkill since projects provide allot of functionality, and it would clutter up the WebUI like crazy unless they could be hidden somehow. And then there is still the question how to 'properly' store the BLOG content in the project? 3. The normal ability to BLOG/Journal on an actual project. Has the same question as #2 but the 'where' is pretty obvious. > Most objects in OGo already do have a "journal" (tasks, appointments, > projects). I suspect whats actually needed is some kind of > "reporting" frontend here? Possibly just an RSS feed which cumulates > the "notes" of the individual object types? I agree, at least on Tasks. Otherwise they only 'sort of' have a journal; notes could work but I think the functionality would need some tweaking. > Personally I'm not a big fan of unstructured data input. I'm rather > keen on making structured input easier than on adding facilities to > enable unstructured data. Eg while generic object links can be handy > hacks sometimes (I _never_ use them), the structured links are much > more valuable. Agree. > Anyways, I'm not sure how all that relates to Asterisk :-) The CRM part sort of does; but not directly. From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Nov 27 17:28:32 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 18:28:32 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] In-Reply-To: <1164645639.3892.27.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611230849.34559.chris123@magma.ca> <20061124071626.z52avuo084k8wcgk@www.mormail.com> <200611241016.34104.chris123@magma.ca> <1EAA5B11-AA45-47A7-A454-9FBF0CFF1F8D@opengroupware.org> <1164645639.3892.27.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> Message-ID: <4B987549-6188-45A1-9518-34D91DC36A47@opengroupware.org> On Nov 27, 2006, at 17:40, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > 1.) Store the entire BLOG as a document; simple but seems hard to > edit. Definitely not. > 2.) Store the BLOG as a "folder" in a project, each file in the folder > being presented as an "article" or "entry". Yes, I think thats the way to go. > Also simple but hard to sort and/or search. Why? > [ FYI to readers: > CREATE TABLE note () INHERITS(document); > CREATE TABLE doc () INHERITS(document); ] Technical detail, but yes, a note is a decoupled document :-) > 3.) Store the BLOG in notes. Each note being an article or entry. Also an option. In fact I think that we already have preliminary support for blogging protocols against notes (metalog and RSS). > Notes provide title, author, modification and creation time. There > is a > "file_type" attribute; if this is other than "txt" does the note > still > appear in the WebUI? Notes have their own commands in Logic. I don't think that they are treated like documents right now. > I suppose this is really the same as #2 since notes are documents; Higher level API wise they are quite different, they are only similiar in the database. Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Nov 27 17:50:38 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Williams) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:50:38 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] In-Reply-To: <4B987549-6188-45A1-9518-34D91DC36A47@opengroupware.org> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611230849.34559.chris123@magma.ca> <20061124071626.z52avuo084k8wcgk@www.mormail.com> <200611241016.34104.chris123@magma.ca> <1EAA5B11-AA45-47A7-A454-9FBF0CFF1F8D@opengroupware.org> <1164645639.3892.27.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> <4B987549-6188-45A1-9518-34D91DC36A47@opengroupware.org> Message-ID: <1164649839.7744.6.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> > > 1.) Store the entire BLOG as a document; simple but seems hard to > > edit. > Definitely not. > > 2.) Store the BLOG as a "folder" in a project, each file in the folder > > being presented as an "article" or "entry". > Yes, I think thats the way to go. So just a folder named "BLOG" or "Journal" or distinguish the folder meant to be rendered as a blog some other way? Or just try to render any given folder as a BLOG? > > Also simple but hard to sort and/or search. > Why? No reason I suppose, since notes are documents. > > [ FYI to readers: > > CREATE TABLE note () INHERITS(document); > > CREATE TABLE doc () INHERITS(document); ] > Technical detail, but yes, a note is a decoupled document :-) > > 3.) Store the BLOG in notes. Each note being an article or entry. > Also an option. In fact I think that we already have preliminary > support for blogging protocols against notes (metalog and RSS). Yes, bits of it even work. :) > > Notes provide title, author, modification and creation time. There > > is a > > "file_type" attribute; if this is other than "txt" does the note > > still > > appear in the WebUI? > Notes have their own commands in Logic. I don't think that they are > treated like documents right now. > > I suppose this is really the same as #2 since notes are documents; > Higher level API wise they are quite different, they are only > similiar in the database. From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Nov 27 17:56:30 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 18:56:30 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] In-Reply-To: <1164649839.7744.6.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611230849.34559.chris123@magma.ca> <20061124071626.z52avuo084k8wcgk@www.mormail.com> <200611241016.34104.chris123@magma.ca> <1EAA5B11-AA45-47A7-A454-9FBF0CFF1F8D@opengroupware.org> <1164645639.3892.27.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> <4B987549-6188-45A1-9518-34D91DC36A47@opengroupware.org> <1164649839.7744.6.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> Message-ID: <8337E10B-BF75-48D0-B9EE-4888F88D30C1@opengroupware.org> On Nov 27, 2006, at 18:50, Adam Williams wrote: >>> 2.) Store the BLOG as a "folder" in a project, each file in the >>> folder >>> being presented as an "article" or "entry". >> Yes, I think thats the way to go. > So just a folder named "BLOG" or "Journal" or distinguish the folder > meant to be rendered as a blog some other way? Or just try to render > any given folder as a BLOG? Actually I would use a whole project as a blog, possibly creating subfolders for archived items. Anyways, it could be done in meriads of ways, the actual setup does not really matter. You could also address one folder as a blog, n.p. Note that when querying files from database projects you can treat the whole project as one big document container. That is, for such an application it doesn't really matter whether the project has a folder hierarchy. >>> [ FYI to readers: >>> CREATE TABLE note () INHERITS(document); >>> CREATE TABLE doc () INHERITS(document); ] >> Technical detail, but yes, a note is a decoupled document :-) >>> 3.) Store the BLOG in notes. Each note being an article or entry. >> Also an option. In fact I think that we already have preliminary >> support for blogging protocols against notes (metalog and RSS). > Yes, bits of it even work. :) Do we actually need a standard (publishing) API like Atom for that? What kind of native application would you use with OGo? I think most blogs are authored using the web interface, not by API? Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Nov 27 18:59:34 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:59:34 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] In-Reply-To: <8337E10B-BF75-48D0-B9EE-4888F88D30C1@opengroupware.org> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611230849.34559.chris123@magma.ca> <20061124071626.z52avuo084k8wcgk@www.mormail.com> <200611241016.34104.chris123@magma.ca> <1EAA5B11-AA45-47A7-A454-9FBF0CFF1F8D@opengroupware.org> <1164645639.3892.27.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> <4B987549-6188-45A1-9518-34D91DC36A47@opengroupware.org> <1164649839.7744.6.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <8337E10B-BF75-48D0-B9EE-4888F88D30C1@opengroupware.org> Message-ID: <1164653974.3892.63.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> On Mon, 2006-11-27 at 18:56 +0100, Helge Hess wrote: > On Nov 27, 2006, at 18:50, Adam Williams wrote: > >>> 2.) Store the BLOG as a "folder" in a project, each file in the > >>> folder > >>> being presented as an "article" or "entry". > >> Yes, I think thats the way to go. > > So just a folder named "BLOG" or "Journal" or distinguish the folder > > meant to be rendered as a blog some other way? Or just try to render > > any given folder as a BLOG? > Actually I would use a whole project as a blog, possibly creating > subfolders for archived items. Ok. And it is acceptable to set is_fake in order to keep it from appearing in the WebUI and confusing users (since they will have to have read access in order to read the blog/journal)? is_fake isn't reserved somehow just for projects that are 'enterprise projects'? > Anyways, it could be done in meriads of ways, the actual setup does > not really matter. You could also address one folder as a blog, n.p. > Note that when querying files from database projects you can treat > the whole project as one big document container. That is, for such an > application it doesn't really matter whether the project has a folder > hierarchy. > >>> [ FYI to readers: > >>> CREATE TABLE note () INHERITS(document); > >>> CREATE TABLE doc () INHERITS(document); ] > >> Technical detail, but yes, a note is a decoupled document :-) > >>> 3.) Store the BLOG in notes. Each note being an article or entry. > >> Also an option. In fact I think that we already have preliminary > >> support for blogging protocols against notes (metalog and RSS). > > Yes, bits of it even work. :) > Do we actually need a standard (publishing) API like Atom for that? No, I don't think so. But I'd like to see the thing constructed in such a way that it would be possible for someone to add such support without a tremendous effort. There are several very nice RSS & ATOM aggregators; I'm more interesting in the API for reading than publishing. > What kind of native application would you use with OGo? Seeing new entries appear in an application like Liferia or Blam would be a nice way to keep abreast of new events and notations for people who have allot of projects to oversee. For Windows users Firefox has some very nice feed aggregator extensions. A URL like - http://gourd-amber.morrison.iserv.net/zidestore/so/adam/Projects/rss - already works. Currently nothing useful appears in the actual body of the message (for rss) but it should be pretty easy to add the most recent few notes and if a BLOG exists a link that references that. > I think most blogs are authored using the web interface, not by API? Agree, and again, not so much interested in the authoring part - for us at least much of that would be automatic/automated. From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Nov 27 19:41:41 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:41:41 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] In-Reply-To: <1164653974.3892.63.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611230849.34559.chris123@magma.ca> <20061124071626.z52avuo084k8wcgk@www.mormail.com> <200611241016.34104.chris123@magma.ca> <1EAA5B11-AA45-47A7-A454-9FBF0CFF1F8D@opengroupware.org> <1164645639.3892.27.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> <4B987549-6188-45A1-9518-34D91DC36A47@opengroupware.org> <1164649839.7744.6.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <8337E10B-BF75-48D0-B9EE-4888F88D30C1@opengroupware.org> <1164653974.3892.63.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> Message-ID: <97E1EF3B-07FE-421D-AB33-D651AAFDA56E@opengroupware.org> On Nov 27, 2006, at 19:59, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > Ok. And it is acceptable to set is_fake in order to keep it from > appearing in the WebUI and confusing users (since they will have to > have > read access in order to read the blog/journal)? is_fake isn't > reserved > somehow just for projects that are 'enterprise projects'? Projects also have a 'type' which can be used to configure the tabs in the project application. So you can simply add a new project type 'blog' which appears in its own tab. >> Do we actually need a standard (publishing) API like Atom for that? > No, I don't think so. But I'd like to see the thing constructed in > such > a way that it would be possible for someone to add such support > without > a tremendous effort. There are several very nice RSS & ATOM > aggregators; I'm more interesting in the API for reading than > publishing. Well, adding ATOM for reading (RSS style) should be almost trivial. Just like it works now with RSS. >> What kind of native application would you use with OGo? > Seeing new entries appear in an application like Liferia or Blam would > be a nice way to keep abreast of new events and notations for > people who > have allot of projects to oversee. For Windows users Firefox has > some > very nice feed aggregator extensions. I was referring to edit-type applications only. RSS already works. > A URL like - > http://gourd-amber.morrison.iserv.net/zidestore/so/adam/Projects/rss - > already works. Currently nothing useful appears in the actual body of > the message (for rss) but it should be pretty easy to add the most > recent few notes and if a BLOG exists a link that references that. .../Projects/ABC/Notes/rss and .../Projects/ABC/Documents/rss should also work. With content. Which might be quite useful, already. I also like the Projects/rss to see what new projects people create. Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 28 00:46:20 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (chris h) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:46:20 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] In-Reply-To: <97E1EF3B-07FE-421D-AB33-D651AAFDA56E@opengroupware.org> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <1164653974.3892.63.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> <97E1EF3B-07FE-421D-AB33-D651AAFDA56E@opengroupware.org> Message-ID: <200611271946.20843.chris123@magma.ca> On Monday 27 November 2006 14:41, Helge Hess wrote: > > I was referring to edit-type applications only. RSS already works. There are three methods that I am aware of (perhaps more) 1 via a web UI....slow and cumbersome and assumes access to the server 2. email posting but can be tricky if not suitable spam management and access controls but strength is that it does not require direct access to the server (my preferred method but I have a bias) 3. sessions: a remote editor opens a session on the server, edits or creates data that is uploaded to the server via ftp, webdav, ssh or other. This method requires client software to be installed to handle session management. (see zope/plone for an example; ie: external editor is the name of the product) There is also some xml stuff used on some blogs that I dont quit understand so cant comment on it. Regards /ch From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 28 00:54:43 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (chris h) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:54:43 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY In-Reply-To: <20061127085500.93E64254C9@l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20061127085500.93E64254C9@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <200611271954.43594.chris123@magma.ca> On Monday 27 November 2006 03:55, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > - possibility to tag and move/copy/link the voice message to a project One of the techniques used on another project that I follow zope/plone is the use of keywords as tags. This allows both searching, sorting and indexing via keywords and is very useful for managing any form of content, as it can be sorted by any of the associated metadata attached to the particular file: author, date, release date, contact etc etc. Keywords are managed in terms of permissions assigned to individual users and/or groups. OGo already has this structure. How difficult it would be to create a mechanism to add tags (ie: keywords) to OGo content is not known to me but could possible be one method to address asterisk and blog/journal requirements (at least in terms of input). Regards /ch From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 28 01:00:34 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Williams) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:00:34 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] In-Reply-To: <200611271946.20843.chris123@magma.ca> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <1164653974.3892.63.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> <97E1EF3B-07FE-421D-AB33-D651AAFDA56E@opengroupware.org> <200611271946.20843.chris123@magma.ca> Message-ID: <1164675634.7744.12.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> > > I was referring to edit-type applications only. RSS already works. > There are three methods that I am aware of (perhaps more) > 1 via a web UI....slow and cumbersome and assumes access to the server Depends on the WebUI. Since you can do everything to a project via various APIs (XML-RPC, DAV, ZOGI, etc...) I suppose you can make any kind of WebUI you want. > 2. email posting but can be tricky if not suitable spam management and access > controls but strength is that it does not require direct access to the server > (my preferred method but I have a bias) Just include authentication in the mail session; authenticated SMTP is pretty standard at this point. > 3. sessions: a remote editor opens a session on the server, edits or creates > data that is uploaded to the server via ftp, webdav, ssh or other. This > method requires client software to be installed to handle session management. > (see zope/plone for an example; ie: external editor is the name of the > product) I'm not certain how this differs from #1, #2, or using one of the many BLOG (Blogger/ATOM) clients. > There is also some xml stuff used on some blogs that I dont quit understand so > cant comment on it. That is ATOM or Blogger (the fore-runner to ATOM). This represents a data model and a [usually] XML-RPC API for manipulating a BLOG. It has gone from fairly straight forward to rather complex over time. From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 28 03:00:27 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 04:00:27 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] In-Reply-To: <1164675634.7744.12.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <1164653974.3892.63.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> <97E1EF3B-07FE-421D-AB33-D651AAFDA56E@opengroupware.org> <200611271946.20843.chris123@magma.ca> <1164675634.7744.12.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> Message-ID: <3730CB8B-56C8-464D-AE0D-FA7B95B610DF@opengroupware.org> On Nov 28, 2006, at 02:00, Adam Williams wrote: >> There is also some xml stuff used on some blogs that I dont quit >> understand so >> cant comment on it. > That is ATOM or Blogger (the fore-runner to ATOM). This represents a > data model and a [usually] XML-RPC API for manipulating a BLOG. It > has > gone from fairly straight forward to rather complex over time. Well, yes, this is a bit confusing. One needs to distinguish between retrieval protocols and editing ones. Retrieval: - RSS (plain XML/RDF, some RSS 0.9/1.0/2.0/etc exist) - Atom (plain XML) Editing: - metaWebLog (XML-RPC based) - also Atom (plain XML) - xyz Supporting those protocols itself is not particulary hard or complex. For retrieval I guess RSS is all you need (and we already have that). And for editing I suppose everyone uses web interfaces, not native apps. Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 28 03:11:47 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (chris h) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 22:11:47 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] In-Reply-To: <1164675634.7744.12.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611271946.20843.chris123@magma.ca> <1164675634.7744.12.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> Message-ID: <200611272211.47894.chris123@magma.ca> On Monday 27 November 2006 20:00, Adam Williams wrote: > > 3. sessions: a remote editor opens a session on the server, edits or > > creates data that is uploaded to the server via ftp, webdav, ssh or > > other. This method requires client software to be installed to handle > > session management. (see zope/plone for an example; ie: external editor > > is the name of the product) > > I'm not certain how this differs from #1, #2, or using one of the many > BLOG (Blogger/ATOM) clients. It differs in that content can be created by a local application that you are familiar with say for example .doc which is automatically converted to xhtml on the fly by the server in this case. Its a method to placate end users. /ch From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 28 12:42:50 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 07:42:50 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY In-Reply-To: <200611271954.43594.chris123@magma.ca> References: <20061127085500.93E64254C9@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611271954.43594.chris123@magma.ca> Message-ID: <1164717770.4296.13.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> > > - possibility to tag and move/copy/link the voice message to a project > One of the techniques used on another project that I follow zope/plone is the > use of keywords as tags. This allows both searching, sorting and indexing via > keywords and is very useful for managing any form of content, as it can be > sorted by any of the associated metadata attached to the particular file: > author, date, release date, contact etc etc. I think this is, at least in the backend, already supported. > Keywords are managed in terms of permissions assigned to individual users > and/or groups. OGo already has this structure. How difficult it would be to > create a mechanism to add tags (ie: keywords) to OGo content is not known to > me but could possible be one method to address asterisk and blog/journal > requirements (at least in terms of input). Should be very simple, OGo provides "propertyManager", easily usable like this - properties = [[[self getCTX] propertyManager] propertiesForGlobalID:eo]; propertyList = [[NSMutableArray alloc] initWithCapacity:6]; enumerator = [properties keyEnumerator]; while ((key = [enumerator nextObject]) != nil) { [propertyList addObject:[NSDictionary dictionaryWithObjectsAndKeys: key, @"property", [self _takeNamespaceFromProperty:key], @"namespace", [self _takeAttributeFromProperty:key] , @"attribute", [self NIL:[properties valueForKey:key]], @"value", @"objectProperty", @"entityName", nil]]; } - The WebUI already provides a [really primitive] SkyObjectPropertyEditor in the document view. To be useful though I think the interface would have to be smart enough to provide different properties (for creation) based upon the type of file. That makes it a bit more complicated. It seems like it would have to be configurable somewhat like extended attributes are configurable. But if you are automatically importing some content then setting a set of properties is pretty straight forward. From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 28 13:31:06 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (chris h) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:31:06 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY In-Reply-To: <1164717770.4296.13.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> References: <20061127085500.93E64254C9@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611271954.43594.chris123@magma.ca> <1164717770.4296.13.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> Message-ID: <200611280831.06456.chris123@magma.ca> On Tuesday 28 November 2006 07:42, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > To be useful though I think the interface would have to be smart enough > to provide different properties (for creation) based upon the type of > file. That makes it a bit more complicated. It seems like it would > have to be configurable somewhat like extended attributes are > configurable. The way this is addressed in zope/plone world is that they separate mime ty= pes=20 from keywords. Keywords are tags that are either established by the admin=20 and/or users pending rights allowing users to add this tag to a particular= =20 file.=20 So for example creating or uploading a .doc file called testrun the mime ty= pe=20 would be .doc (and this is assigned automatically) but the keyword (in this= =20 example) would be system_test. This keyword is selected from a list by the= =20 user and associated with the document. This is done via an edit form=20 associate with the particular file. If the user has permission they can=20 first add a new keyword and then associate it with the file.=20 The principle here is simple as it allows indexing and searching based on=20 keywords independent of the file type. Sorting then becomes very simple.=20 So in a journal context if I want a listing of all documents that pertain t= o X=20 provided that all documents were indeed marked with the keyword X a simple= =20 search would provide the listing which then can be saved, linked to or=20 stored. =46rom an asterisk perspective pending on where the data is stored, (voice = mail=20 for example) keyword may or may not be that useful.=20 > But if you are automatically importing some content then setting a set > of properties is pretty straight forward. Ya thats how I understand it.=20 /ch From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 28 16:15:01 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:15:01 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY In-Reply-To: <200611280831.06456.chris123@magma.ca> References: <20061127085500.93E64254C9@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611271954.43594.chris123@magma.ca> <1164717770.4296.13.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> <200611280831.06456.chris123@magma.ca> Message-ID: <1164730501.4443.25.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> > > To be useful though I think the interface would have to be smart enough > > to provide different properties (for creation) based upon the type of > > file. That makes it a bit more complicated. It seems like it would > > have to be configurable somewhat like extended attributes are > > configurable. > The way this is addressed in zope/plone world is that they separate mime types > from keywords. Keywords are tags that are either established by the admin > and/or users pending rights allowing users to add this tag to a particular > file. The list of legitimate attributes should certainly be defined by the admin. > So for example creating or uploading a .doc file called testrun the mime type > would be .doc (and this is assigned automatically) but the keyword (in this ".doc" isn't a mime type. (?) OGo as well stores the "file_type", which appears to be file extension, for documents. > So in a journal context if I want a listing of all documents that pertain to X > provided that all documents were indeed marked with the keyword X a simple > search would provide the listing which then can be saved, linked to or > stored. I don't know. If a document relates to an object I think it should really be linked to that object - like with a specific type of object_link. Properties seem better suited for 'arbitrary' bits of information that are related to an item. For instance we have a Gtk widget that displays an object link - it displays the label, comment, and target object_id; in addition it then adds summary information depending on the target object type. For contact, for instance it displays first name, last name, e-mail address, URL and phone, fax, and mobile numbers. Properties are another matter. The application needs to recognize the property name and know how to display it (and deal with it) - is it a select box, text, a number, etc... I don't know if it is currently possible to search by properties; all I know is that they can be loaded and saved (easily). > From an asterisk perspective pending on where the data is stored, (voice mail > for example) keyword may or may not be that useful. You'd have to store a voice mail in a project in order for it to have properties. Otherwise you can accomplish much the same thing on an IMAP server using annotations or even just message headers. > > But if you are automatically importing some content then setting a set > > of properties is pretty straight forward. > Ya thats how I understand it. From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 28 16:59:09 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:59:09 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] Message-ID: <20061128165909.C80C625A02@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Hi, > > .../Projects/ABC/Notes/rss > and seems to work well. > .../Projects/ABC/Documents/rss > > should also work. With content. Which might be quite useful, already. not really useful, as this is only working for changes on files and directories on the root folder of a project, is there a Default to allow updates to the feed from changes on files in subfolders? If not, I think this is worth an Enh. request. (: > > I also like the Projects/rss to see what new projects people create. seems to work well too. thanks Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 28 17:05:55 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:05:55 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] In-Reply-To: <20061128165909.C80C625A02@l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20061128165909.C80C625A02@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <532DB4A5-7D53-44D1-9867-B04FEDF1D986@opengroupware.org> On Nov 28, 2006, at 17:59, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: >> .../Projects/ABC/Documents/rss >> >> should also work. With content. Which might be quite useful, already. > not really useful, as this is only working for changes on files and > directories > on the > root folder of a project, is there a Default to allow updates to > the feed from > changes on > files in subfolders? If not, I think this is worth an Enh. request. (: I suppose this should work any folder? Like Documents/MyFolder/rss? Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 28 17:28:41 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:28:41 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] Message-ID: <20061128172841.D3ADE259F5@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Hi, discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > On Nov 28, 2006, at 17:59, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > >> .../Projects/ABC/Documents/rss > >> > >> should also work. With content. Which might be quite useful, already. > > not really useful, as this is only working for changes on files and > > directories > > on the > > root folder of a project, is there a Default to allow updates to > > the feed from > > changes on > > files in subfolders? If not, I think this is worth an Enh. request. (: > > I suppose this should work any folder? Like Documents/MyFolder/rss? yes, I have seen this, forgot to mention it. But for me not practicable, because of having only a small number of projects, with a large number of subfolders... so setting up a feed for every folder is sth. that I will not do. kind regards Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 28 17:47:46 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:47:46 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] In-Reply-To: <20061128172841.D3ADE259F5@l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20061128172841.D3ADE259F5@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <364F1ED7-53DA-43B3-B0F0-F03272AF9544@opengroupware.org> On Nov 28, 2006, at 18:28, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: >> On Nov 28, 2006, at 17:59, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: >>>> .../Projects/ABC/Documents/rss >>>> >>>> should also work. With content. Which might be quite useful, >>>> already. >>> not really useful, as this is only working for changes on files and >>> directories >>> on the >>> root folder of a project, is there a Default to allow updates to >>> the feed from >>> changes on >>> files in subfolders? If not, I think this is worth an Enh. >>> request. (: >> >> I suppose this should work any folder? Like Documents/MyFolder/rss? > yes, I have seen this, forgot to mention it. But for me not > practicable, because > of having > only a small number of projects, with a large number of subfolders... > so setting up a feed for every folder is sth. that I will not do. Ah, so you want to have a single feed containing all documents changes of a project. Thats not very difficult to implement (for database based projects). Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Nov 28 19:04:49 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:04:49 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] Message-ID: <20061128190449.B69AA258B2@l00-bugdead-prods.de> Hi, discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > On Nov 28, 2006, at 18:28, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > > discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > >> On Nov 28, 2006, at 17:59, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > >>>> .../Projects/ABC/Documents/rss > >>>> > >>>> should also work. With content. Which might be quite useful, > >>>> already. > >>> not really useful, as this is only working for changes on files and > >>> directories > >>> on the > >>> root folder of a project, is there a Default to allow updates to > >>> the feed from > >>> changes on > >>> files in subfolders? If not, I think this is worth an Enh. > >>> request. (: > >> > >> I suppose this should work any folder? Like Documents/MyFolder/rss? > > yes, I have seen this, forgot to mention it. But for me not > > practicable, because > > of having > > only a small number of projects, with a large number of subfolders... > > so setting up a feed for every folder is sth. that I will not do. > > Ah, so you want to have a single feed containing all documents > changes of a project. Thats not very difficult to implement (for > database based projects). yes, exactly meant that: http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1814 kind regards Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Nov 30 10:53:49 2006 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:53:49 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] BLOGing/Journaling/ACTing [Was: OGo and asterisk, SUMMARY] In-Reply-To: <1164646817.3892.48.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> References: <20061123071807.9D3E02546B@l00-bugdead-prods.de> <200611230849.34559.chris123@magma.ca> <20061124071626.z52avuo084k8wcgk@www.mormail.com> <1164646817.3892.48.camel@aleph.whitemice.org> Message-ID: On Nov 27, 2006, at 18:00, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > I have three jounal/BLOG-esque applications: > > 1.) For CRM we record a contact journal for a contact and/or > enterprise. > Currently we store this in a separate database, which works but is > messy and make writing consumers irritating (get this here, get that > there, etc...). We store the OGo Id in the external database and the > application has to jump back and forth. > > For this case it is pretty simple: {Date}, {Object Id}, {Comment}, > {Commentor}, & {Type}. Type relates closely to something like > appointment type: meeting, call, etc... Why don't you use a project, that is the notes of a project, for that? Just because it a note has no type? Because you can't enter the date of a note? > In retrospect I could store > this in the schedular since I think I can retrieve all the 'events' > for > a contact or enterprise in a given date range. For some idiotic > reason > I didn't think you could create an appointment with no account > participants; so this one is really a brain-fart on my part. I can't > see any reason why that wouldn't work. By only question would be > how to > properly store events that only have a date and no time; as all day > events? I wouldn't store that in the scheduler. > 2. A work journal. > > This is for lawyer and engineering types. This seems like it would be > related to a project, but the end-user really looks at it as a > journal. > So some way to query and present a view of all entries by a particular > user is needed, which may traverse multiple "projects" (at least how > the end-user is thinking of the concept of "project"). This is the > one > that seems really arbitrary - and they REALLY want it a certain way > [ lawyers and engineers... if you haven't had the pleasure... :) ] I can't follow that completely. Isn't that tasks? Attached to projects and also shows up in an overview. > 3. The normal ability to BLOG/Journal on an actual project. Has the > same question as #2 but the 'where' is pretty obvious. Well we already have that with project notes? >> Most objects in OGo already do have a "journal" (tasks, appointments, >> projects). I suspect whats actually needed is some kind of >> "reporting" frontend here? Possibly just an RSS feed which cumulates >> the "notes" of the individual object types? > I agree, at least on Tasks. Otherwise they only 'sort of' have a > journal; notes could work but I think the functionality would need > some > tweaking. I was referring to notes. What is missing? Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/