From discuss@opengroupware.org Sun Dec 9 18:35:37 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno WIlliams) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 13:35:37 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: [OGo-Users] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <1197225337.12973.56.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> > I personally found it hard to get OGo running. This is a common complaint; and I think it is partially valid. VALID - (1) The OGo packaging is rough and some packages don't enforce their own prerequisites / dependencies. (2) Links to the current / valid documentation are not prominent enough. INVALID - (1) OGo is a complex package, people trying to install it without **FIRST** reading the documentation should expect to have problems. Nobody whips out an M$-Exchange CD pops it in the drive, double clicks install.exe, and then charges through the installing merrily clicking random options. Or if they do they will probably not end up with the configuration they want. There is an entirely unrealistic and unreasonable expectation that enterprise applications install as easily and in as straight-forward a manner as desktop applications. (2) Part of this issue is distribution. Installation on openSUSE usually takes only minutes. To function properly OGo needs an appropriately configured PostgreSQL, Apache, & MTA. Script magic can only do so much to provide that - administrators should *EXPECT* to have to setup these services. If the current configuration differs from the default or the distribution has done something torturous in packaging the service there isn't any solution except reading the documentation and setting up the service appropriately. How to setup the services manually is very specifically described in WMOGAG. http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/whitemice/wmogag/file_view > It didn't stop me from > installing it, but the process was involved and error prone enough for > me to not want to do it again - I even wrote install scripts so I > wouldn't have to. It should be easier to install, but is really hard. Of course, it is an Open Source project.... "patches welcome". > I installed OGo initially because I had read it worked with Sunbird > over CalDAV - yes, I'm another one of these people looking for an open > source Exchange. CalDAV/GroupDAV isn't anywhere near a "replacement" for Exchange. But I understand the meaning. :) > Even though I'd happily sell Outlook connectors to > clients I want a calendar server I can use in a Linux client/server > environment myself. Sure. > I understand CalDAV is horribly complex, but the > first server to connect to a CalDAV/GroupDAV client reliably will > collect a HUGE number of users. Agree. But that won't happen magickally, and OGo is an Open Source project.... > GroupDAV probably won't be implemented > on a client before CalDAV is, so if OpenGroupware waits for a GroupDAV You are implying that you found CalDAV/GroupDAV not to work? > client it will have lost first-mover advantage. Not only that, but it > will sound inferior to potential new users as GroupDAV is a subset of No, GroupDAV is not a subset of CalDAV. CalDAV is specific to calendering. GroupDAV provides for contact information. > CalDAV (even if CalDAV turns out to be less stable in early > implementations). CalDAV & GroupDAV are complimentary. AFAIK the GroupDAV support works. The CalDAV support "works" but with some issues. On the later I believe the Sunbird/Lighting team is looking into it. > I think Skyrix could do a few extra things to get $$$'s. Yes, the > Outlook connector and support options are good, but Digium/Asterisk has > fostered an industry around itself - Skyrix should attempt to do the > same. I don't have any affiliation with Skyrix so I don't speak for them. To some extent there is an industry around OGo. There is me - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com/ There are some consultants in Wisconsin, but I can't remember their name. There is list at - http://www.opengroupware.org/en/users/support/usa.html and lists for other countries. [I'm not vouching for any mentioned name, or know if the list is current, but saying there is nobody is incorrect]. Part of the issue is that groupware is a tough niche. Many of those who use groupware are USING it, as in, they are into doing something else. :) They view the product as a tool and aren't usually interesting in contributing back to the community ["Huh?"] or what they create with OGo is entirely proprietary. Witness - http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=ddv5htgd_14zrg6zm&hl=en http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=ddv5htgd_0sb385m&hl=en - yep, that is OpenGroupware. The uses and native environment for groupware is much different than a more general purpose tool like a file server, mail server, PBX, etc... which essentially everyone needs. Also "groupware" is a rather nebulous term which to many people means different things, this hampers development. I've been using OGo since 2003, and starting looking for groupware solutions ~2001. The number of "groupware" projects I've seen flame-out is very long. It also seems to attract a fair number of what I will kindly call "cranks" who generate an enormous amount of mail and little to none of either specific requirements/issues or code. The openoffice groupware sub-project is a perfect example of great potential flattened by "cranks". > Customisation of OGo themes would be the first I'd consider. It > would be easy to outsource, and some corporate types will pay a fortune > to customise their intranets to a company theme. Possibly. However customizing the OGo theme only gets you so far, and the docs plone has lots of examples on that. Most of what I've encountered is that companies either use OGo straight-up and don't much care about things like themes. Or they actually want to integrate OGo into their system/intranets and thus want components that work with OGo and not so much the WebUI re-themed. Thus there is the MooTools based OGo calendar - http://forum.mootools.net/viewtopic.php?id=5933 - http://mail.opengroupware.org/pipermail/developer/2007-October/003221.html > Training organisations > often buy copyrighted training/lesson plans etc.. What do you think WMOGAG is? http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/whitemice/wmogag/file_view I don't sell it, but no customer in their right mind is going to deploy and pour information into a server for which there isn't a manual. They may not read the manual, but there has to be one. :) > Resellers might be in the market for > off-the-shelf quality marketing materials and/or user manual > hardcopies. Nah, I've talked to publishers. The market for IT oriented texts is in a death spiral, notice how many titles have been around forever without updates. Your odds of getting a new administration oriented text, of almost any stripe, published are extremely thin. People are quite satisfied with PDFs, they might like a physical manual but they are rarely willing to *pay* for one. From discuss@opengroupware.org Sun Dec 9 19:36:58 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 20:36:58 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: [OGo-Users] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <4B287CCC-3B12-46A3-9EE9-39EACA2BC4C8@opengroupware.org> On 09.12.2007, at 17:56, Mark Pavlichuk wrote: > I understand CalDAV is horribly complex, but the first server to > connect to a CalDAV/GroupDAV client reliably will collect a HUGE > number of users. This is a primary goal of the ScalableOGo (http:// www.scalableogo.org/) server. I've designed it to directly support native clients (ie it stores client provided iCal/vCard files as-is). OGo is different, its more about advanced groupware functionality, less about building a 1:1 backend for CalDAV / GroupDAV. Anyways, thanks for posting your impressions! Greets, Helge PS: its rather obvious that you can't compare OGo with Digium, AFAIK they primarily sell hardware. -- Helge Hess http://www.helgehess.eu/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Sun Dec 9 20:02:23 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Chris H) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 15:02:23 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: [OGo-Users] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <4B287CCC-3B12-46A3-9EE9-39EACA2BC4C8@opengroupware.org> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> <4B287CCC-3B12-46A3-9EE9-39EACA2BC4C8@opengroupware.org> Message-ID: <200712091502.24068.chris123@magma.ca> On Sunday 09 December 2007 02:36:58 pm Helge Hess wrote: > Anyways, thanks for posting your impressions! > > Greets, > Helge > > PS: its rather obvious that you can't compare OGo with Digium, AFAIK > they primarily sell hardware. I would not dismiss the suggestions and reference to Digium so quickly. While Digium does sell cards and hardware, I can quarantee you its not their primary revenue stream. For example if you look at their store you will see that the following items are for sale: hardware. software, IVR prompts, Codec, Services, Training, Bookshelf and cool stuff. ref: http://store.digium.com/ I would guess their primary income is from professional services and implementations. While they offer hardware products to support these services, the customer determines what will be deployed on the hardware side given a spec and a budget. So Digium's primary revenue stream would come from customized implementations of their software which is very similar to the model that Skyrix uses. Of course additional revenue comes from support, training and documentation and specialty codec's as required by the customer. Their implementations are not cheap and simple to do for an experienced crew. Its a rather nice broad range of offerings that are well balanced and that may merrit a second look. The suggestions from this end, do seem feasible IMHO. But then again, all of this is none of our business. We are simpley happy to have OGo to play with which is greatly appreciated. Best regards -- /ch From discuss@opengroupware.org Sun Dec 9 20:08:43 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno WIlliams) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:08:43 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: [OGo-Users] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <200712091502.24068.chris123@magma.ca> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> <4B287CCC-3B12-46A3-9EE9-39EACA2BC4C8@opengroupware.org> <200712091502.24068.chris123@magma.ca> Message-ID: <1197230923.12973.63.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> > > PS: its rather obvious that you can't compare OGo with Digium, AFAIK > > they primarily sell hardware. > I would guess their primary income is from professional services and > implementations. Yes, I've been to presentations by Digium (they aren't that far from here). I'm certain that professional services is the bulk of their revenue. But I still don't think groupware and PBX are comparable markets. > While they offer hardware products to support these > services, the customer determines what will be deployed on the hardware side > given a spec and a budget. Mmmm, I'm not so sure. I think most sites that buy instead of build buy a solution lock-stock-and-barrell; most "real" Asterisk installations are not white box. But anyway, it is beside the point. > customized implementations of their software which is very similar to the Customized configurations, yes. If you've ever dealt with the dialpan of a PBX at a site with > 100 people..... yep, I'd pay somebody to do that. :) > The suggestions from this end, do seem feasible IMHO. But then again, all of > this is none of our business. Yep. > We are simpley happy to have OGo to play with > which is greatly appreciated. And it is Open Source, so anyone is free to pick up the ball... From discuss@opengroupware.org Sun Dec 9 20:19:08 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Chris H) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 15:19:08 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: [OGo-Users] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <1197230923.12973.63.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> <200712091502.24068.chris123@magma.ca> <1197230923.12973.63.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> Message-ID: <200712091519.08166.chris123@magma.ca> On Sunday 09 December 2007 03:08:43 pm Adam Tauno WIlliams wrote: > Yes, I've been to presentations by Digium (they aren't that far from > here). I'm certain that professional services is the bulk of their > revenue. But I still don't think groupware and PBX are comparable > markets. Professional services have the highest return of any services offered. Thats rather a well established model. > Mmmm, I'm not so sure. I think most sites that buy instead of build buy > a solution lock-stock-and-barrell; most "real" Asterisk installations > are not white box. But anyway, it is beside the point. No I wasn't referring to white boxes, rather to card offerings. > Customized configurations, yes. If you've ever dealt with the dialpan > of a PBX at a site with > 100 people..... yep, I'd pay somebody to do > that. :) Im still scratch my hair....whats left of it that is.....:) > And it is Open Source, so anyone is free to pick up the ball... Yes but..:) IMHO its always best to either work along side or fully support the initial project as its a far more productive use of resources. Or did I misunderstand your point Adam? -- /ch From discuss@opengroupware.org Sun Dec 9 20:39:52 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 21:39:52 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: [OGo-Users] Some impressions and comments about OGo Message-ID: <20071209203953.6103C4A374@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> Hi, > > > Customized configurations, yes. If you've ever dealt with the dialpan > > of a PBX at a site with > 100 people..... yep, I'd pay somebody to do > > that. :) Then take a look at freepbx: http://www.freepbx.org/ It's easy to use, higly customizable, also beyond the webui. But that gets a bit off topic. Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Sun Dec 9 20:50:16 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:50:16 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: [OGo-Users] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <20071209203953.6103C4A374@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20071209203953.6103C4A374@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <1197233416.6204.58.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net> > > > Customized configurations, yes. If you've ever dealt with the dialpan > > > of a PBX at a site with > 100 people..... yep, I'd pay somebody to do > > > that. :) > Then take a look at freepbx: http://www.freepbx.org/ This wasn't a complaint against Asterisk. We don't even use Asterisk, but I have 16 Nortel PBXs (with VOIP). They provide a decent GUI for configuration. It is just that the problem is complex, corporations want call pools and after-hours plans, and when A doesn't answer go to B, and if B doesn't answer ring pool C x number of times........ Multiply that by many departments. Dialpans are just a nightmare of tedium regardless of phone system. A *beautiful* candidate for out sourcing! *OUT* sourcing, as in, far far away for me. :) > It's easy to use, higly customizable, also beyond the webui. > But that gets a bit off topic. From discuss@opengroupware.org Sun Dec 9 21:06:47 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 22:06:47 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: [OGo-Users] Some impressions and commentsabout OGo Message-ID: <20071209210648.40F114A391@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > > > > Customized configurations, yes. If you've ever dealt with the dialpan > > > > of a PBX at a site with > 100 people..... yep, I'd pay somebody to do > > > > that. :) > > Then take a look at freepbx: http://www.freepbx.org/ > > This wasn't a complaint against Asterisk. We don't even use Asterisk, well, no, I didn't took it as that. > but I have 16 Nortel PBXs (with VOIP). They provide a decent GUI for > configuration. It is just that the problem is complex, corporations > want call pools and after-hours plans, and when A doesn't answer go to > B, and if B doesn't answer ring pool C x number of times........ > Multiply that by many departments. Dialpans are just a nightmare of > tedium regardless of phone system. I know that very well. The only other Telephone system was an Avaya Tenovis based VoIP/ISDN system, but it was crap in case of extensibility and maintainability (need to run some expensive windows tool for management, or buy expensive support for even just addding or changing an internal extension or mailbox). At least for smaller companies, that won't spent too much money into a telephone system, with e.g. freepbx or some similar interface to it, Asterisk is a damn cheap alternative compared to others. > > A *beautiful* candidate for out sourcing! *OUT* sourcing, as in, far > far away for me. :) At least what I can say to Asterisk or CallWeaver, it takes a little time to get used to it to write useful dial plans manually, but its rather easy to start, when you e.g. start with using such a webinterface, and then reverse engineer the dial plan with the available documentation. > > > It's easy to use, higly customizable, also beyond the webui. > > But that gets a bit off topic. even more ;) Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Sun Dec 9 21:24:48 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno WIlliams) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 16:24:48 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: [OGo-Users] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <200712091519.08166.chris123@magma.ca> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> <200712091502.24068.chris123@magma.ca> <1197230923.12973.63.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <200712091519.08166.chris123@magma.ca> Message-ID: <1197235488.12973.72.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> > > Customized configurations, yes. If you've ever dealt with the dialpan > > of a PBX at a site with > 100 people..... yep, I'd pay somebody to do > > that. :) > Im still scratch my hair....whats left of it that is.....:) Fortunately my blood line have all remained shaggy all the way to the grave. I guess that makes me especially cut out for this kind of thing. > > And it is Open Source, so anyone is free to pick up the ball... > Yes but..:) IMHO its always best to either work along side or fully support > the initial project as its a far more productive use of resources. Or did I > misunderstand your point Adam? Beats me, I didn't mean anything especially profound. It is Open Source so if it doesn't do something you want you are free to fix/extend it. As for "productive use of resources", that is for everyone to decide for themselves. From discuss@opengroupware.org Sun Dec 9 23:07:30 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Bart Schouten) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 00:07:30 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: [OGo-Users] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <1197235488.12973.72.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> <200712091502.24068.chris123@magma.ca> <1197230923.12973.63.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <200712091519.08166.chris123@magma.ca> <1197235488.12973.72.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> Message-ID: <475C7532.6040105@bart.ahum.nl> > It is Open Source > so if it doesn't do something you want you are free to fix/extend it. Yes, but because the whole world is free to participate in the project, does that mean the whole world shares the responsibility for it? From discuss@opengroupware.org Sun Dec 9 23:35:14 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 00:35:14 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: [OGo-Users] Some impressions and comments aboutOGo Message-ID: <20071209233516.574654A3EA@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > > It is Open Source > > so if it doesn't do something you want you are free to fix/extend it. > > Yes, but because the whole world is free to participate in the project, > does that mean the whole world shares > the responsibility for it? nope, but I totally share Adams opionion about Open Source, when it does not fit to your needs feel free to fit/extend it. Just take a look at the AsteriskDialer plugin on the users@ ml. Well, I started to use OGo, nearly three years ago, and it took me a lot of time to get into it to be able to extend it, nevertheless to say that I do not yet understand all of its details completely. Well, that's just my two cents. cheers Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Sun Dec 9 23:59:42 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno WIlliams) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 18:59:42 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: [OGo-Users] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <475C7532.6040105@bart.ahum.nl> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> <200712091502.24068.chris123@magma.ca> <1197230923.12973.63.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <200712091519.08166.chris123@magma.ca> <1197235488.12973.72.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C7532.6040105@bart.ahum.nl> Message-ID: <1197244782.12973.74.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> > > It is Open Source > > so if it doesn't do something you want you are free to fix/extend it. > Yes, but because the whole world is free to participate in the project, > does that mean the whole world shares > the responsibility for it? Sorry, but I can't think of any definition of "responsibility" where this question makes any sense. From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 10 01:32:49 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Bart Schouten) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 02:32:49 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: [OGo-Users] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <1197244782.12973.74.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> <200712091502.24068.chris123@magma.ca> <1197230923.12973.63.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <200712091519.08166.chris123@magma.ca> <1197235488.12973.72.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C7532.6040105@bart.ahum.nl> <1197244782.12973.74.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> Message-ID: <475C9741.2010401@bart.ahum.nl> On Sun, 9 Dec 2007, Adam Tauno WIlliams wrote: >>> It is Open Source >> > so if it doesn't do something you want you are free to fix/extend it. >> Yes, but because the whole world is free to participate in the project, >> does that mean the whole world shares >> the responsibility for it? > > Sorry, but I can't think of any definition of "responsibility" where > this question makes any sense. Okay... well let me explain why I asked that question. Partly it's because I somewhat have this feeling of grudge against open source developers in general because I get so frustrated with the usability of the linux desktop.. ;) , but also because I find it interesting to see how open source teams deal with product development and the resolving of issues. I think a big part of the incentive for change in this world is born out of things, people, situations and products not meeting our ever increasing 'standards'. They only other incentive - there are only two - is that people just enjoy creating something better. I call this the negative and the positive incentive. The first one tries to avoid an unacceptable condition, the other tries to create an 'envisioned' one. I think politics is mainly driven by the first one (problem resolution - reactive) while such a thing as open source development is often powered more by the second one (creating new things - creative).... But when people start using a product, they want it to meet their standards of usability, and if it doesn't, they get frustrated, and start trying to get the ones responsible for the product to resolve this unacceptable situation; but the incentive for this is primarily the negative one.... and if you're just doing something for fun, you have no need for someone else's 'problems', so you are like "if you want it to be fixed, then fix it :)". But if you percieve something as a problem, you start to go and look for who is responsible for that unacceptible situation, and demand that they fix it, for you feel they are responsible for your problem. But in reality, it is your demands, your 'standards' that created the problem, not the product itself. Using linux can be frustrating, but only because of your lack of patience and other things you think you can't live without.... So maybe the whole problem with the open source world is not the lack of organisation or the lack of professionality or the lack of accountability... but simply all those big and unyielding requirements we have of life and of ourselves. There is a reason most ppl in the developed countries are less happy than those in the undeveloped countries and I think it is because they (we) require and demand much more of life. So whereas the demanding user wants to know who is responsible for the *problem situation*, the team is only interested in who is responsible for the *product* (more or less), and when the team says "you can fix it if you want to", to the user that feels as if the team is not taking responsibility for the problem situation, which it indeed is not doing, because the problem belongs to the user, and the team considers itself responsible not for the problem but for the product. Okay this may be quite a black-and-white picture of things, but I think you catch my drift. Interesting :) . greetz, bart. From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 10 02:02:25 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Bart Schouten) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 03:02:25 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Email address made it to spamlist In-Reply-To: <475C9741.2010401@bart.ahum.nl> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> <200712091502.24068.chris123@magma.ca> <1197230923.12973.63.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <200712091519.08166.chris123@magma.ca> <1197235488.12973.72.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C7532.6040105@bart.ahum.nl> <1197244782.12973.74.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C9741.2010401@bart.ahum.nl> Message-ID: <475C9E31.9030503@bart.ahum.nl> Hey guys, I have something to tell you. Quite recently I received some spam on the email address I use exclusively for this mailinglist (that is also the reason I am using unique email addresses for mailing lists, so that I can identify the 'leak') but it is quite odd because the webarchives for this list do not show any user's email address. Most spam for this (range of) address(es) get's filtered out quite early so I was quite 'lucky' ;) to catch this one ;D even though it ended up in my spambox. So...I just thought I'd share it with you. Oh, and the email was from "georgetownma@idealhealthcouple.com" if that is of interest to anyone. good night, bart From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 10 02:44:05 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 21:44:05 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Email address made it to spamlist In-Reply-To: <475C9E31.9030503@bart.ahum.nl> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> <200712091502.24068.chris123@magma.ca> <1197230923.12973.63.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <200712091519.08166.chris123@magma.ca> <1197235488.12973.72.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C7532.6040105@bart.ahum.nl> <1197244782.12973.74.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C9741.2010401@bart.ahum.nl> <475C9E31.9030503@bart.ahum.nl> Message-ID: <1197254645.6204.62.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net> > Quite recently I received some spam on the email address I use > exclusively for this mailinglist (that is also the reason I am using > unique email addresses for mailing lists, so that I can identify the > 'leak') but it is quite odd because the webarchives for this list do not The addresses are spoofed, e-mail addresses mean next to nothing. I get not SPAM I can in anyway related to these lists. From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 10 03:39:51 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Mark Pavlichuk) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:39:51 +1000 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: Some impressions and comments about OGo Message-ID: <475CB507.7030204@internode.on.net> > VALID - > (1) The OGo packaging is rough and some packages don't enforce their own > prerequisites / dependencies. Suggested fixes for the Debian packaging : 1) In Debian Etch the Apache and Postgres virtual packages will install legacy versions by default (to enable graceful upgrade from Debian Woody) unless the current Apache and Postgres packages are already installed. OGo depends on these virtual packages. The Debian OGo packages should warn about this so the user can abort the install and pre-install Apache2 and Postgres 8.1 if desired. There may be similar issues with libapache-mod-ngobjweb and libapache2-mod-ngobjweb. 2) The rewrite and include modules need to be enabled in Apache. This MAY happen for Apache (don't know), but it certainly doesn't for Apache2. 3) OGo should be enabled in the appropriate runlevels (at the users discretion). Even if this is too much trouble, a README.Debian text file in /usr/share/doc/opengroupware (as per Debian tradition) explaining these issues would be appreciated. Would have saved me quite a bit of time. > INVALID - > (1) OGo is a complex package, people trying to install it without > **FIRST** reading the documentation should expect to have problems. > Nobody whips out an M$-Exchange CD pops it in the drive, double clicks > install.exe, and then charges through the installing merrily clicking > random options. Perhaps I'm just weird, but this is exactly how I learn... I install a package and play, and then go back to a manual if/when I need to. It's a lot easier for me to efficiently read a manual if I've first played with the software and can put the information into context. The brick walls I ran into installing OGo annoyed the hell out of me. :) > Script magic can only > do so much to provide that - administrators should *EXPECT* to have > to setup these services. If the current configuration differs from the > default or the distribution has done something torturous in packaging > the service there isn't any solution except reading the documentation > and setting up the service appropriately. How to setup the services > manually is very specifically described in WMOGAG. Many IT people are LAZY (not a bad thing) and/or have limited time. Making it easier to get a working (though untuned) config is a goal worth achieving IMHO. (The moans from the Sunbird Devel list asking for "someone else" to set up an OGo test server helped me understand this). Surely a script automating OGo + Postfix + CyrusIMAP isn't a bad thing. I would be open to donating mine to the deb package. Such things go in /usr/share/doc/opengroupware.org/examples as per Debian tradition. I'm only a novice scripter, but I guess something is better than nothing. Dire warnings for end users might be appropriate however. I also plan to write another few scripts for the CTI stuff, Funambol and perhaps SpamAssassin/Amavis/ClamAV once I can actually make it all work manually. >>/ I understand CalDAV is horribly complex, but the />>/ first server to connect to a CalDAV/GroupDAV client reliably will />>/ collect a HUGE number of users. /> > Agree. But that won't happen magickally, and OGo is an Open Source > project.... I'm no developer, but I've emailed the Sunbird list and have spoken to Bruno Browning (the Sunbird CalDAV guy). It seems that noone from their side is interested in implementing GroupDAV as CalDAV is the priority right now. He suggested either making OpenGroupware CalDAV compliant (which he understood would be a big task), or implementing a GroupDAV plugin for Sunbird. I'm beginning to understand that neither of these things will probably happen in the near future, and I don't have the skills to do anything about that problem myself. >>/ GroupDAV probably won't be implemented />>/ on a client before CalDAV is, so if OpenGroupware waits for a GroupDAV /> > You are implying that you found CalDAV/GroupDAV not to work? I've tried Sunbird, Mulberry and Chandler... Sunbird was most acceptable, but still had issues with alarm notifications creating duplicate events. I found a patch for Sunbird 0.5, but then I discovered another bug quite quickly, and from experience and discussions I now know that Sunbird is becoming less likely to work correctly against OGo as time passes because its CalDAV implementation is becoming more complex and is implementing CalDAV features OGo does not support. > No, GroupDAV is not a subset of CalDAV. CalDAV is specific to > calendering. GroupDAV provides for contact information. It was my understanding that both provide similar features, but GroupDAV was created as a subset of the CalDAV spec because of the complexity of CalDAV, and the fear that CalDAV would become another IMAP (ie. a complex spec with many slightly incompatible implementations). Perhaps I got the wrong impression? > What do you think WMOGAG is? > http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/whitemice/wmogag/file_view > I don't sell it, but no customer in their right mind is going to deploy > and pour information into a server for which there isn't a manual. Perhaps you should find a printer who can bind one-off copies so you can offer a hardcopy of your manual to the world for a price that is worth your while (which is probably much more than you would EVER pay yourself). You may get bites or you may not, but it's partially about marketing. Selling manuals gives your legitimacy a boost as a commercial entity, and would do the same for Skyrix. I've got marketing people in my family and they've helped me understand the unfortunate truth that keeping an eye towards image is often essential. I guess that's why I would like to see training materials, lesson plans and manuals for sale. They are probably written already, so they might as well go up for sale at a price that would justify one-off printing. (It's understood that rare manuals sell at a HEFTY price). If they sell well and turn a nice profit that's even better. Even Richard Stallman was surprised that people bought tapes of stuff that they could download for free in the early days of GNU. Give it a go... you've got nothing to lose! Same goes for WebUI customisation. It looks good for your company ie. gives customers the impression that your company has another revenue stream, and that they are buying into a product they can extend later (even if they never do). Putting on my evil-financial-controller-with-no-IT-knowledge hat the Skyrix web page looked a little spartan to me, and there isn't enough to buy for me to feel completely reassured that they are a dependable company. -Mark From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 10 05:20:37 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 00:20:37 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <475CB507.7030204@internode.on.net> References: <475CB507.7030204@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <1197264038.6204.106.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net> > > VALID - > > (1) The OGo packaging is rough and some packages don't enforce their own > > prerequisites / dependencies. > Suggested fixes for the Debian packaging : > 1) In Debian Etch the Apache and Postgres virtual packages will install > legacy versions by default (to enable graceful upgrade from Debian Woody) > unless the current Apache and Postgres packages are already installed. > OGo depends on these virtual packages. The Debian OGo packages should > warn about this so the user can abort the install and pre-install Apache2 > and Postgres 8.1 if desired. There may be similar issues with > libapache-mod-ngobjweb and libapache2-mod-ngobjweb. Please check if there are open bugs for these issues, if not create them. I don't maintain Debian packages, but Frank might fix them. > 2) The rewrite and include modules need to be enabled in Apache. This > MAY happen for Apache (don't know), but it certainly doesn't for Apache2. Works on SuSE; same as above. > 3) OGo should be enabled in the appropriate runlevels (at the users > discretion). > Even if this is too much trouble, a README.Debian text file in > /usr/share/doc/opengroupware (as per Debian tradition) explaining these > issues would be appreciated. Would have saved me quite a bit of time. Seems a good idea; file an enhancement request. > > INVALID - > > (1) OGo is a complex package, people trying to install it without > > **FIRST** reading the documentation should expect to have problems. > > Nobody whips out an M$-Exchange CD pops it in the drive, double clicks > > install.exe, and then charges through the installing merrily clicking > > random options. > Perhaps I'm just weird, but this is exactly how I learn... That is OK, but then you also can't complain when it blows up. :) > > Script magic can only > > do so much to provide that - administrators should *EXPECT* to have > > to setup these services. If the current configuration differs from the > > default or the distribution has done something torturous in packaging > > the service there isn't any solution except reading the documentation > > and setting up the service appropriately. How to setup the services > > manually is very specifically described in WMOGAG. > Many IT people are LAZY (not a bad thing) and/or have limited time. > Making it easier to get a working (though untuned) config is a goal worth > achieving IMHO. Of course, no argueing that. Specific issues, like above, are useful. > (The moans from the Sunbird Devel list asking for > "someone else" to set up an OGo test server helped me understand this). > Surely a script automating OGo + Postfix + CyrusIMAP isn't a bad thing. I think what a good distribution provides for Postfix & Cyrus should work out-of-the box with OGo. > I would be open to donating mine to the deb package. Such things go in > /usr/share/doc/opengroupware.org/examples as per Debian tradition. I'm > only a novice scripter, but I guess something is better than nothing. > Dire warnings for end users might be appropriate however. At least upload anything you create to the docs plone. > I also plan to write another few scripts for the CTI stuff, Funambol and > perhaps SpamAssassin/Amavis/ClamAV once I can actually make it all > work manually. Wonderful. > >>/ I understand CalDAV is horribly complex, but the > />>/ first server to connect to a CalDAV/GroupDAV client reliably will > />>/ collect a HUGE number of users. > /> > > Agree. But that won't happen magickally, and OGo is an Open Source > > project.... > I'm no developer, Neither am I. :) > but I've emailed the Sunbird list and have spoken to > Bruno Browning (the Sunbird CalDAV guy). It seems that noone from their > side is interested in implementing GroupDAV as CalDAV is the priority > right now. He suggested either making OpenGroupware CalDAV compliant > (which he understood would be a big task), or implementing a GroupDAV > plugin for Sunbird. I'm beginning to understand that neither of these > things will probably happen in the near future, and I don't have the > skills to do anything about that problem myself. > >>/ GroupDAV probably won't be implemented > />>/ on a client before CalDAV is, so if OpenGroupware waits for a GroupDAV > > You are implying that you found CalDAV/GroupDAV not to work? > I've tried Sunbird, Mulberry and Chandler... Sunbird was most > acceptable, but still had issues with alarm notifications creating > duplicate events. I found a patch for Sunbird 0.5, but then I discovered > another bug quite quickly, and from experience and discussions I now > know that Sunbird is becoming less likely to work correctly against OGo I only find one CalDAV issue in bugzilla. http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1876 If there is an additional issue it needs to get reported. These may or may not be difficult to fix. As I poke around inside ZideStore I waffle between thinking it is either really impressive or a labyrinthine train wreck. Since it doesn't seem to be getter any better qualified love I might take a look over the holidays and see if I can figure anything out. But most of my focus is currently on zOGI & Consonance, which is working pretty well these days - after only three years of floundering about. :) I'm optimistic for something generally useful in Q1 of 2008. > > No, GroupDAV is not a subset of CalDAV. CalDAV is specific to > > calendering. GroupDAV provides for contact information. > It was my understanding that both provide similar features, but GroupDAV > was created as a subset of the CalDAV spec because of the complexity of > CalDAV, That is part of it, in addition CalDAV doesn't solve the issue of the address book. > and the fear that CalDAV would become another IMAP (ie. a complex > spec with many slightly incompatible implementations). Perhaps I got the > wrong impression? CalDAV is complex, but my understanding isn't that that was the primary motivation behind GroupDAV. There are some CalDAV haters on the lists that certainly promote that notion. -- Consonance: an Open Source .NET OpenGroupware client. http://code.google.com/p/consonance/ - Searching for a bored Cairo# hacker. Contact:awilliam@whitemiceconsulting.com http://www.opengroupware.org From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 10 12:16:21 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:16:21 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Some impressions and comments aboutOGo In-Reply-To: <20071209233516.574654A3EA@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20071209233516.574654A3EA@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: On 10.12.2007, at 00:35, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > nope, but I totally share Adams opionion about Open Source, when it > does not fit to your needs feel free to fit/extend it. Well, I do not ;-) If we, as a FOSS project, produce a product called "OGo", it should have decent quality and it should be sufficiently well documented (Adam's docs are excellent, but they should be integrated much better into a new website). IMHO OGo should produce something which can be used by non-hackers. Pointing users to the fact that this is FOSS and if they care they can improve it leads to nowhere :-) Which BTW brings me back to crappy packages. I have the impression that we should stop providing packages from the OGo website. That definitely hurts, but unmaintained/crappy packages are useless too. Maybe we should instead focus on providing a great build-from-the- source experience. Greets, Helge PS: people can already buy the Instant-OGo to avoid the install troubles (and get all the other stuff like mail servers too). Thats what I would do if I would need to install Asterisk ... -- Helge Hess http://www.helgehess.eu/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 10 12:30:51 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:30:51 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <475C9741.2010401@bart.ahum.nl> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> <200712091502.24068.chris123@magma.ca> <1197230923.12973.63.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <200712091519.08166.chris123@magma.ca> <1197235488.12973.72.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C7532.6040105@bart.ahum.nl> <1197244782.12973.74.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C9741.2010401@bart.ahum.nl> Message-ID: <5045760C-9E1B-4CF3-A6CE-1DD3E7823863@opengroupware.org> On 10.12.2007, at 02:32, Bart Schouten wrote: > So whereas the demanding user wants to know who is responsible for > the *problem situation*, the team is only interested in who is > responsible for the *product* (more or less), and when the team says > "you can fix it if you want to", to the user that feels as if the > team is not taking responsibility for the problem situation, which > it indeed is not doing, because the problem belongs to the user, and > the team considers itself responsible not for the problem but for > the product. Okay this may be quite a black-and-white picture of > things, but I think you catch my drift. Its a pretty nice summary and I pretty much share the observations. However, IMHO "your" ;-) basic problem (an extremely widespread one) is that you equal FOSS == free as in free beer. Why should someone giving you the stuff for free held responsible in any way? From the (GPL) license: ---snip--- OGo is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU Lesser General Public ---snap--- (BTW: a lot of proprietary software has pretty similiar licenses ;-) If you want, you can already buy a product like http://www.instantogo.com/ and you get an actual product with someone you can talk to. Or you can buy the services of Adam and you get someone you can talk to. Or buy development from me and I extend OGo for you. etc etc etc. As a simple analogy, you can certainly go to a shop and buy a car frame and all others parts you need to build a car. But this still doesn't enable you to build one. (eg personally I still HATE setting up mailservers. I never got into this and I would always pay for it :-) Anyways, despite all that ;-), I still have the opinion that OGo *should* provide some kind of shrinkwrapped product which can be put to use by endusers. That would certainly be a good thing to promote the project as a whole. In fact I have a few ideas on how to do this ... next year ;-) Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://www.helgehess.eu/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 10 12:40:19 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:40:19 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] CMS Question [Was: New Website] In-Reply-To: <47343E72.4000200@opengroupware.org> References: <4717BB96.40502@huanga.com> <47332B89.9040709@bart.ahum.nl> <200711081106.50416.chris123@magma.ca> <1194559751.5928.15.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net> <1194584375.4573.11.camel@localhost> <47343E72.4000200@opengroupware.org> Message-ID: <1197290419.6204.108.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net> > Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > [...] > > Ok, I've got the demo of InstantOGo ASE installed in VMware. Where can > > I stick this rather largish file? > Would you please upload this file into your account > @developer.opengroupware.org?! > I'd pick it up from there later and place it somewhere > for public access. This has been uploaded. Any time line as to when, or if, it will get posted somewhere? From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 10 13:09:12 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Frank Reppin) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:09:12 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] CMS Question [Was: New Website] In-Reply-To: <1197290419.6204.108.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net> References: <4717BB96.40502@huanga.com> <47332B89.9040709@bart.ahum.nl> <200711081106.50416.chris123@magma.ca> <1194559751.5928.15.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net> <1194584375.4573.11.camel@localhost> <47343E72.4000200@opengroupware.org> <1197290419.6204.108.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net> Message-ID: <475D3A78.3080705@opengroupware.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Adam Tauno Williams wrote: >> Adam Tauno Williams wrote: >> [...] >>> Ok, I've got the demo of InstantOGo ASE installed in VMware. Where can >>> I stick this rather largish file? >> Would you please upload this file into your account >> @developer.opengroupware.org?! >> I'd pick it up from there later and place it somewhere >> for public access. > > This has been uploaded. Any time line as to when, or if, it will get > posted somewhere? aye - saw it and picked it up from there. Currently implementing some hack to ensure that nobody downloads an already expired version (since the admin interface will deorbit some functions after 30 days). But this is on my radar for this week. HTH, Frank Reppin - -- 43rd Law of Computing: Anything that can go wr fortune: Segmentation violation -- Core dumped -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHXTp49Atrv5KxwOwRApOMAKCOh8uOt0ARce7x3ZoqX3oIKmiYegCePjVA 7oo4w32ZQ8PmW6mhzGzpcEo= =9Gah -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 10 17:37:28 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:37:28 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Some impressions and comments aboutOGo Message-ID: <20071210173729.705714A5A4@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> > > Which BTW brings me back to crappy packages. I have the impression > that we should stop providing packages from the OGo website. That > definitely hurts, but unmaintained/crappy packages are useless too. > Maybe we should instead focus on providing a great build-from-the- > source experience. I have such a script for OpenBSD, it configures, asterisk, jabber, ogo, mail, ldap, ... alltogether, in case you activate it, maybe it could be of any help. Right now I am trying to write ports, that then will result in packages, for OpenBSD. It is just the fact, that software that is not available in a port, does not get very much attention from OpenBSD users, or even less. Sebastian > > Greets, > Helge > > PS: people can already buy the Instant-OGo to avoid the install > troubles (and get all the other stuff like mail servers too). Thats > what I would do if I would need to install Asterisk ... I won't sell you one, but as offered before, I can install and configure you one, for testing purposes on a spare box. From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 10 22:44:21 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Bart Schouten) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 23:44:21 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <5045760C-9E1B-4CF3-A6CE-1DD3E7823863@opengroupware.org> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> <200712091502.24068.chris123@magma.ca> <1197230923.12973.63.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <200712091519.08166.chris123@magma.ca> <1197235488.12973.72.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C7532.6040105@bart.ahum.nl> <1197244782.12973.74.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C9741.2010401@bart.ahum.nl> <5045760C-9E1B-4CF3-A6CE-1DD3E7823863@opengroupware.org> Message-ID: <475DC145.10105@bart.ahum.nl> > However, IMHO "your" ;-) basic problem (an extremely widespread one) is > that you equal FOSS == free as in free beer. Why should someone giving > you the stuff for free held responsible in any way? Well, suppose we lived in a world where everyone gave everything for free. If you don't have to pay for anything, you don't need to get payed for anything either. So what would that change about the concept of responsibility? There'd still be jobs but nobobdy would be doing any job they wouldn't want to do. So it's a bit like contributing to an open source project. But I think, that because many services are vital to the workings of a society, that people accepting those jobs would be asked to commit themselves to it, just like volunteers within a volunteer organisation are asked to show some commitment and some responsibility. If a volunteer demonstrates himself to be unable/incapable to bear the responsibilty, he will be relieved of his duty and no long be asked to fulfill that task. So yes, I think there can be some notion of responsibility even if you are a volunteer. Well, to me, the biggest charm of open source is not that I can modify it, but that I don't have to pay for it, which means that nobody is trying to make a profit on me, which means they are not trying to manipulate me, which means I can engage in a *human* relationship with them, the developers/producers, instead of becoming simply a means to an end. It means they are not lying to me, and trying to use me.. it means they are not my enemy, but my friends and co-creators. That's why I feel at home in the concept of open source. And also, because of human empowerment, of course. Transparency, and ability. In commerce, in this digital age, it is often vital to deny consumers some ability or the other, so that they may then buy it from you. Like, there is software, it is 'freely' available, anyone could start using it, but you don't want them to because they haven't paid you for it yet. So even if they cannot afford it, you would prevent them from using that software to accomplish what they want to accomplish, because allowing them to use it would harm your business model. So in effect... they are your enemy, or you are theirs, because you are trying to sabotage their goals - prevent them from using software that would enable them to accomplish their goals. Business relies on artificial scarcity, which to any casual observer would seem completely at odds with the interests of society at large. And I think a different 'business' model could be possible, in the long run of human development (that is, a different model of production and distribution, and also a different model of human relationships altogether), and I think that open source is one of the phenonena that hints at the possibility of this and in any case introduces some of the concepts that would be central to such a way of living. So I would not so easily dismiss the kostenfrei dimension of open source. > As a simple analogy, you can certainly go to a shop and buy a car frame > and all others parts you need to build a car. But this still doesn't > enable you to build one. I would ask my father to do it for me ;). He used to be a car mechanic. :P. But I think even he would skip on that task.. ;) > (eg personally I still HATE setting up mailservers. I never got into > this and I would always pay for it :-) Yeah I don't mind to pay for services either. I just don't like to pay for software most of the time, e.g. pay €30,- for WinRAR just to be able to use compressed archives. I mean, how long would it take to create a program like that, just the basics, with zip, rar, and tgz and tar support? Completely incomparable to the development of a web browser, for example, IIRC the Opera browser was only €40 or €50 or something of the kind (did they become completely free?). > > > Anyways, despite all that ;-), I still have the opinion that OGo > *should* provide some kind of shrinkwrapped product which can be put to > use by endusers. That would certainly be a good thing to promote the > project as a whole. > In fact I have a few ideas on how to do this ... next year ;-) It sure would :). greetz, Bart From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 10 23:05:36 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 00:05:36 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <475DC145.10105@bart.ahum.nl> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> <200712091502.24068.chris123@magma.ca> <1197230923.12973.63.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <200712091519.08166.chris123@magma.ca> <1197235488.12973.72.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C7532.6040105@bart.ahum.nl> <1197244782.12973.74.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C9741.2010401@bart.ahum.nl> <5045760C-9E1B-4CF3-A6CE-1DD3E7823863@opengroupware.org> <475DC145.10105@bart.ahum.nl> Message-ID: On 10.12.2007, at 23:44, Bart Schouten wrote: > Well, suppose we lived in a world where everyone gave everything for > free. No interest in that, I already lived in the GDR and experienced what this implies. [and no interest in political discussions either, thanks ;-)] Helge From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 10 23:33:09 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Raffael Luthiger) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 00:33:09 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: [OGo-Users] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <1197225337.12973.56.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> <1197225337.12973.56.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> Message-ID: <475DCCB5.7020404@huanga.com> Adam Tauno WIlliams wrote: > (1) OGo is a complex package, people trying to install it without > **FIRST** reading the documentation should expect to have problems. > Nobody whips out an M$-Exchange CD pops it in the drive, double clicks > install.exe, and then charges through the installing merrily clicking > random options. Or if they do they will probably not end up with the > configuration they want. Not with the "perfect" configuration they want. But they have at least a running system to play around with (and show to the customer/boss :) ). It would really be great to have OGo running in less than 10 minutes. (And I think your VMware image is a good idea in that direction). I think you are mixing here something as well. Configuration and Installation are two different things (imho). I think an installation should go very quickly, even for an enterprise application. But the configuration part can take several hours. I still would love it if the installation would be as easy as adding a rpm repository and typing "yum install ogo" :) Anyway... We already talked about it several times. And there are already several good ideas floating around in this discussion group. Raffael From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 10 23:43:46 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Bart Schouten) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 00:43:46 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> <200712091502.24068.chris123@magma.ca> <1197230923.12973.63.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <200712091519.08166.chris123@magma.ca> <1197235488.12973.72.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C7532.6040105@bart.ahum.nl> <1197244782.12973.74.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C9741.2010401@bart.ahum.nl> <5045760C-9E1B-4CF3-A6CE-1DD3E7823863@opengroupware.org> <475DC145.10105@bart.ahum.nl> Message-ID: <475DCF32.4060405@bart.ahum.nl> Helge Hess schreef: > On 10.12.2007, at 23:44, Bart Schouten wrote: >> Well, suppose we lived in a world where everyone gave everything for >> free. > > > No interest in that, I already lived in the GDR and experienced what > this implies. > [and no interest in political discussions either, thanks ;-)] I don't think life in the GDR came anywhere REMOTELY near what I would have in mind. Communism of any form known to man is always accomplished by force, and uses force and control in order to continuate its existance. But suit yourself. I just don't think you can talk about responsibility without exploring the notion of voluntarism. But if Adam is right, and I'm sure he is, and the majority of open source developers are developing under commercial sponsoring, then this whole train of thought doesn't really apply. Because then we have people developing for money that do not need to please any consumer/end user. What the end user wins is transparency, open standards and lack of manipulation and/or product development that caters for the whims of the market rather than real value. What he loses is developers that really care (even if it's just part of the job description) for the end user's user experience. I guess talking about any responsibility towards end users becomes a bit empty then. Bart From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Dec 11 01:08:19 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 02:08:19 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Some impressions and comments about OGo In-Reply-To: <475DCF32.4060405@bart.ahum.nl> References: <475C1E34.2060002@internode.on.net> <200712091502.24068.chris123@magma.ca> <1197230923.12973.63.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <200712091519.08166.chris123@magma.ca> <1197235488.12973.72.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C7532.6040105@bart.ahum.nl> <1197244782.12973.74.camel@ws01.whitemice.org> <475C9741.2010401@bart.ahum.nl> <5045760C-9E1B-4CF3-A6CE-1DD3E7823863@opengroupware.org> <475DC145.10105@bart.ahum.nl> <475DCF32.4060405@bart.ahum.nl> Message-ID: <2D0A2346-1167-4C26-B7F2-86F0FA90085A@opengroupware.org> On 11.12.2007, at 00:43, Bart Schouten wrote: > I don't think life in the GDR came anywhere REMOTELY near what I > would have in mind. You also need to read the second sentence: > [and no interest in political discussions either, thanks ;-)] Really, this list is about discussing the OGo software, not about FOSS principles nor about communism :-) So please lets get back to the topic. If you want to volunteer for doing work on OGo thats certainly very welcome. Pick an aspect and contribute! :-) Personally I don't really care about the motivation for someone working on OGo as long as it benefits the project. Thanks a lot ;-) Helge -- Helge Hess http://www.helgehess.eu/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Tue Dec 11 12:29:20 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Mark Pavlichuk) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:29:20 +1000 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: Some impressions and comment about OGo Message-ID: <475E82A0.3090400@internode.on.net> > Which BTW brings me back to crappy packages. I have the impression > that we should stop providing packages from the OGo website. That > definitely hurts, but unmaintained/crappy packages are useless too. > Maybe we should instead focus on providing a great build-from-the- > source experience. > > Greets, > Helge > > PS: people can already buy the Instant-OGo to avoid the install > troubles (and get all the other stuff like mail servers too). Thats > what I would do if I would need to install Asterisk ... The problem with the Debian packages is OGo is installed, and doesn't work... and there's no documentation bundled to explain why. I've submitted a documentation bug with text that can be copied and pasted into a text file ie. /usr/share/doc/opengroupware.org/README.Debian . This will give people less to complain about. -Mark From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 09:44:53 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:44:53 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo Message-ID: <20071213094454.30D4D4A6F8@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> Hi, I know this was discussed several times earlier, and the end was there should be sth. like a general journal application, sth. like that. well, I won't go and write such a complete yournal, but I'd like to do the following: first, enhance the database layout with a new table, to contain the call detail records, taken from the asterisk: CREATE TABLE `cdr` ( `calldate` datetime NOT NULL default '0000-00-00 00:00:00', `clid` varchar(80) NOT NULL default '', `src` varchar(80) NOT NULL default '', `dst` varchar(80) NOT NULL default '', `dcontext` varchar(80) NOT NULL default '', `channel` varchar(80) NOT NULL default '', `dstchannel` varchar(80) NOT NULL default '', `lastapp` varchar(80) NOT NULL default '', `lastdata` varchar(80) NOT NULL default '', `duration` int(11) NOT NULL default '0', `billsec` int(11) NOT NULL default '0', `disposition` varchar(45) NOT NULL default '', `amaflags` int(11) NOT NULL default '0', `accountcode` varchar(20) NOT NULL default '', `userfield` varchar(255) NOT NULL default '' ); ALTER TABLE `cdr` ADD INDEX ( `calldate` ); ALTER TABLE `cdr` ADD INDEX ( `dst` ); ALTER TABLE `cdr` ADD INDEX ( `accountcode` ); Either the asterisk/callweaver is writing the information directly into the ogo database then, or is using an own database, and the info is synced to the ogo database. At least that would be sth. I think I could implement, as I have no idea how to deal with two different databases at the same time, as the telephone numbers have to be compared between these two. Then I'd create a new tab to the AsteriskUI: http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/buzzdee/asterisk/AsteriskUI/view?searchterm=AsteriskUI where people, belonging to a special ogo group, are allowed to search and create report, e.g. all calls within a given month, to or from a given extension/external number, ... stuff like that, I'm open for suggestions. further I'd like to add a new tab to the personUI, where the call logs are shown either in a list, or like the appointments tab, as a calendar, sth. like that. Or just add a checkbox to the appointment view, that allows to "show me the phone call records" to this persons telephones. Well, as phone calls records can be seen as sensitive information, I think, some access rights or additional filters would be needed later. Any comments on this are welcome. Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 12:02:27 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:02:27 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo In-Reply-To: <20071213094454.30D4D4A6F8@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20071213094454.30D4D4A6F8@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: On 13.12.2007, at 10:44, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > Either the asterisk/callweaver is writing the information directly > into the ogo database then, or is using an own database, and the > info is synced to the ogo database. At least that would be sth. I > think I could implement, as I have no idea how to deal with two > different databases at the same time, as the telephone numbers have > to be compared between these two. I think there is nothing bad about storing a call log in the OGo database. Though you should choose a better (more unique) table name! Wrt permissions, I guess the phone calls itself should be private in any case but it would be nice if the users could create a note on a call. (which can have arbitary permission assignments). Personally I wouldn't want to have yet another tab in the person viewer for just a call log. A generic journal would be nice, but also a lot of work. Helge -- Helge Hess http://www.helgehess.eu/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 12:22:50 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:22:50 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo Message-ID: <20071213122251.2FE9059B83@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > On 13.12.2007, at 10:44, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > > Either the asterisk/callweaver is writing the information directly > > into the ogo database then, or is using an own database, and the > > info is synced to the ogo database. At least that would be sth. I > > think I could implement, as I have no idea how to deal with two > > different databases at the same time, as the telephone numbers have > > to be compared between these two. > > I think there is nothing bad about storing a call log in the OGo > database. Though you should choose a better (more unique) table name! the table name is hardcoded in Asterisk, at least, when I take a look at the config file, then I don't see a configuration option for the table name. > > Wrt permissions, I guess the phone calls itself should be private in > any case but it would be nice if the users could create a note on a > call. (which can have arbitary permission assignments). Yes, I thought about adding notes to calls, e.g. just enhancing the database table with a comment field, but when the calls are private, what does it make sense to allow setting different permissions to the notes. Or maybe better a separate table like the date_info table? > > Personally I wouldn't want to have yet another tab in the person > viewer for just a call log. A generic journal would be nice, but also > a lot of work. This is too much work for me right now, but what about overlaying the appointment tab with the phonecalls. After the phone call ended, info is stored in teh database. Then when the user opens the appointment tab, the call record shows up, Allow the user to click on it, to make notes. Well, I think an own tab, with a plain list, would be easier for me to implement, but I think that is sth. I could do too. kind regards Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 12:27:26 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:27:26 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo In-Reply-To: <20071213122251.2FE9059B83@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20071213122251.2FE9059B83@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <040C77E0-FC78-47A0-9501-D2930BB0254B@opengroupware.org> On 13.12.2007, at 13:22, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > Yes, I thought about adding notes to calls, e.g. just enhancing the > database > table with a comment field, but when the calls are private, what > does it > make sense to allow setting different permissions to the notes. As you say, the calls are private, but if the user chooses to expose a call, he can do so by using a note (by assigning the ACL to the people he want to expose the information to). > Or maybe better a separate table like the date_info table? The _info tables are a historical construct to support blobs in the database, its not a design decision. It was required in old Sybase and Oracle versions which had certain limits on BLOBs. >> Personally I wouldn't want to have yet another tab in the person >> viewer for just a call log. A generic journal would be nice, but also >> a lot of work. > This is too much work for me right now, but what about overlaying the > appointment tab with the phonecalls. After the phone call ended, > info is > stored in teh database. Then when the user opens the appointment > tab, the call record shows up, Allow the user to click on it, to > make notes. > Well, I think an own tab, with a plain list, would be easier for me to > implement, but I think that is sth. I could do too. Helge -- Helge Hess http://www.helgehess.eu/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 12:35:43 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:35:43 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo In-Reply-To: References: <20071213094454.30D4D4A6F8@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <1197549343.8395.2.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net> On Thu, 2007-12-13 at 13:02 +0100, Helge Hess wrote: > On 13.12.2007, at 10:44, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > > Either the asterisk/callweaver is writing the information directly > > into the ogo database then, or is using an own database, and the > > info is synced to the ogo database. At least that would be sth. I > > think I could implement, as I have no idea how to deal with two > > different databases at the same time, as the telephone numbers have > > to be compared between these two. > I think there is nothing bad about storing a call log in the OGo > database. Though you should choose a better (more unique) table name! > Wrt permissions, I guess the phone calls itself should be private in > any case but it would be nice if the users could create a note on a > call. (which can have arbitary permission assignments). I think the real solution is to add notes support to contacts; notes can already have a type. So you'd just create a note type of "call" if you need to differentiate. Supporting notes on contacts solves lots of issues. Notes, being documents, I think already support permissions if someone needed them. I know that for a call log to be useful to us it would have to support some at least rudimentary permissions. > Personally I wouldn't want to have yet another tab in the person > viewer for just a call log. A generic journal would be nice, but also > a lot of work. From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 12:39:47 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:39:47 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo In-Reply-To: <20071213122251.2FE9059B83@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20071213122251.2FE9059B83@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <1197549587.8395.7.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net> > > On 13.12.2007, at 10:44, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > > > Either the asterisk/callweaver is writing the information directly > > > into the ogo database then, or is using an own database, and the > > > info is synced to the ogo database. At least that would be sth. I > > > think I could implement, as I have no idea how to deal with two > > > different databases at the same time, as the telephone numbers have > > > to be compared between these two. > > I think there is nothing bad about storing a call log in the OGo > > database. Though you should choose a better (more unique) table name! > the table name is hardcoded in Asterisk, at least, when I take a look at the > config file, then I don't see a configuration option for the table name. If you want CDR data from Asterisk to appear in the OGo database and both are using PostgreSQL there are several pretty simple DB magic tricks to pull that off. The easiest would be to just trigger from the CDR (Call Detail Record) table to create a note (or whatever). It would also allow you to be selective about what CDR data you bought over. > Or maybe better a separate table like the date_info table? Ugh, not another _info table. I think we already have enough superfluous joins going on. > > Personally I wouldn't want to have yet another tab in the person > > viewer for just a call log. A generic journal would be nice, but also > > a lot of work. > This is too much work for me right now, but what about overlaying the > appointment tab with the phonecalls. After the phone call ended, info is > stored in teh database. Then when the user opens the appointment tab, the > call record shows up, Allow the user to click on it, to make notes. > Well, I think an own tab, with a plain list, would be easier for me to > implement, but I think that is sth. I could do too. We already store calls in the scheduler. The interface in our CRM just adds the call with the caller and callee as participants and type "call" and conflicts disabled. So far it works just fine. From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 12:47:14 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:47:14 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo Message-ID: <20071213124714.B971A59BE2@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > On 13.12.2007, at 13:22, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > > Yes, I thought about adding notes to calls, e.g. just enhancing the > > database > > table with a comment field, but when the calls are private, what > > does it > > make sense to allow setting different permissions to the notes. > > As you say, the calls are private, but if the user chooses to expose a > call, he can do so by using a note (by assigning the ACL to the people > he want to expose the information to). ah, now I see what you mean, and yes, it's a useful idea. > > > Or maybe better a separate table like the date_info table? > > The _info tables are a historical construct to support blobs in the > database, its not a design decision. It was required in old Sybase and > Oracle versions which had certain limits on BLOBs. ok, then I'll better add a colum to the cdr table. sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 12:55:45 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:55:45 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo In-Reply-To: <20071213124714.B971A59BE2@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20071213124714.B971A59BE2@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <1197550545.8395.10.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net> On Thu, 2007-12-13 at 13:47 +0100, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > > On 13.12.2007, at 13:22, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > > > Yes, I thought about adding notes to calls, e.g. just enhancing the > > > database > > > table with a comment field, but when the calls are private, what > > > does it > > > make sense to allow setting different permissions to the notes. > > As you say, the calls are private, but if the user chooses to expose a > > call, he can do so by using a note (by assigning the ACL to the people > > he want to expose the information to). > ah, now I see what you mean, and yes, it's a useful idea. I don't see how an ACL can reference a record in a foreign table as the table doesn't have an OGo sequence number as the primary key. Unless you mean only create a note in the instance that someone wants to share call information. > > > Or maybe better a separate table like the date_info table? > > The _info tables are a historical construct to support blobs in the > > database, its not a design decision. It was required in old Sybase and > > Oracle versions which had certain limits on BLOBs. > ok, then I'll better add a colum to the cdr table. From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 13:15:41 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:15:41 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo Message-ID: <20071213131541.AD5EC59B91@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > > > On 13.12.2007, at 10:44, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > > > > Either the asterisk/callweaver is writing the information directly > > > > into the ogo database then, or is using an own database, and the > > > > info is synced to the ogo database. At least that would be sth. I > > > > think I could implement, as I have no idea how to deal with two > > > > different databases at the same time, as the telephone numbers have > > > > to be compared between these two. > > > I think there is nothing bad about storing a call log in the OGo > > > database. Though you should choose a better (more unique) table name! > > the table name is hardcoded in Asterisk, at least, when I take a look at the > > config file, then I don't see a configuration option for the table name. > > If you want CDR data from Asterisk to appear in the OGo database and > both are using PostgreSQL there are several pretty simple DB magic > tricks to pull that off. > > The easiest would be to just trigger from the CDR (Call Detail Record) > table to create a note (or whatever). It would also allow you to be > selective about what CDR data you bought over. Many people use freepbx, that I mentioned earlier in an other thread. This is based on mysql. I don't know much about mysql, but afaik trigger should work there too. I'm not sure whether I can use such a trigger to pull data into an other type of database, running on another host or sth, but generally you are right, a custom table in ogo, with only the stuff really needed makes sense for me too. > > > > Personally I wouldn't want to have yet another tab in the person > > > viewer for just a call log. A generic journal would be nice, but also > > > a lot of work. > > This is too much work for me right now, but what about overlaying the > > appointment tab with the phonecalls. After the phone call ended, info is > > stored in teh database. Then when the user opens the appointment tab, the > > call record shows up, Allow the user to click on it, to make notes. > > Well, I think an own tab, with a plain list, would be easier for me to > > implement, but I think that is sth. I could do too. > > We already store calls in the scheduler. The interface in our CRM just > adds the call with the caller and callee as participants and type "call" > and conflicts disabled. So far it works just fine. > I see, so they are more or less generally showing up in the using an appointment would have all the features needed, e.g. allow permissions, comments to the phonecall. But also the other idea, adding notes to contacts seems a great idea for me, but where should they show up, in another tab, or maybe at the bottom of the attributes tab, or any better place? Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 13:28:25 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:28:25 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo In-Reply-To: <1197549343.8395.2.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net> References: <20071213094454.30D4D4A6F8@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> <1197549343.8395.2.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net> Message-ID: On 13.12.2007, at 13:35, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > I think the real solution is to add notes support to contacts; I have a pending DB schema change which adds this (but not UI/Logic support). Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://www.helgehess.eu/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 13:31:28 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:31:28 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo In-Reply-To: <1197550545.8395.10.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net> References: <20071213124714.B971A59BE2@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> <1197550545.8395.10.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net> Message-ID: <9BB337F2-BC92-4F7A-A49B-EF54EF154E6B@opengroupware.org> On 13.12.2007, at 13:55, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > I don't see how an ACL can reference a record in a foreign table as > the > table doesn't have an OGo sequence number as the primary key. Well, of course the table would need an OGo sequence number :-) Thats easy (default PG value which fetches a value from the sequence). It doesn't even have to be the primary key, just some key (a unique one unless you want to share an ACL between entries). > Unless you mean only create a note in the instance that someone > wants to share call information. Creating a note with the ACL was what I was actually referring to. Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://www.helgehess.eu/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 14:06:20 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:06:20 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo In-Reply-To: <20071213131541.AD5EC59B91@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20071213131541.AD5EC59B91@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <1197554780.6380.2.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net> --=-OnHypGt2ZdwY3nS85159 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > Either the asterisk/callweaver is writing the information directl= y =20 > > > > > into the ogo database then, or is using an own database, and the = =20 > > > > > info is synced to the ogo database. At least that would be sth. I= =20 > > > > > think I could implement, as I have no idea how to deal with two =20 > > > > > different databases at the same time, as the telephone numbers ha= ve =20 > > > > > to be compared between these two. > > > > I think there is nothing bad about storing a call log in the OGo =20 > > > > database. Though you should choose a better (more unique) table nam= e! > > > the table name is hardcoded in Asterisk, at least, when I take a look= at=20 > the=20 > > > config file, then I don't see a configuration option for the table na= me. > > If you want CDR data from Asterisk to appear in the OGo database and > > both are using PostgreSQL there are several pretty simple DB magic > > tricks to pull that off. > > The easiest would be to just trigger from the CDR (Call Detail Record) > > table to create a note (or whatever). It would also allow you to be > > selective about what CDR data you bought over. > Many people use freepbx, that I mentioned earlier in an other thread. Thi= s=20 > is based on mysql. I don't know much about mysql, but afaik trigger shoul= d=20 > work there too.=20 Ugh. Trigger/SPL support in MySQL is really primitive. But you could write some kind of slurp script easy enough to occasionally pull CDR records into OGo. > I'm not sure whether I can use such a trigger to pull data=20 > into an other type of database, running on another host or sth, but=20 Not from MySQL. > generally you are right, a custom table in ogo, with only the stuff reall= y=20 > needed makes sense for me too. > > > > Personally I wouldn't want to have yet another tab in the person =20 > > > > viewer for just a call log. A generic journal would be nice, but al= so =20 > > > > a lot of work. > > > This is too much work for me right now, but what about overlaying the= =20 > > > appointment tab with the phonecalls. After the phone call ended, info= is=20 > > > stored in teh database. Then when the user opens the appointment tab,= =20 > > > call record shows up, Allow the user to click on it, to make notes. > > > Well, I think an own tab, with a plain list, would be easier for me t= o=20 > > > implement, but I think that is sth. I could do too > > We already store calls in the scheduler. The interface in our CRM just > > adds the call with the caller and callee as participants and type "call= " > > and conflicts disabled. So far it works just fine. > I see, so they are more or less generally showing up in the using an=20 > appointment would have all the features needed, e.g. allow permissions,=20 > comments to the phonecall. Yep. > But also the other idea, adding notes to contacts seems a great idea for = me,=20 > but where should they show up, in another tab, or maybe at the bottom of = the=20 > attributes tab, or any better place? I don't see how you'd do it other than another tab. You quickly end up with some contacts having lots of notes. We've implemented contact notes but we currently store them external to the OGo db. --=-OnHypGt2ZdwY3nS85159 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBHYTxcLRePpNle04MRAgVMAJ9enCUEFRLwc1XN6TkSTVTvC4ZlKACdFG75 /w2NbsGu3mPMwSlUWL2FSN0= =cTzE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-OnHypGt2ZdwY3nS85159-- From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 14:14:28 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:14:28 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo In-Reply-To: <1197554780.6380.2.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net> References: <20071213131541.AD5EC59B91@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> <1197554780.6380.2.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net> Message-ID: <731B19CC-70F1-4AED-9CE6-5CC89A47E80B@opengroupware.org> On 13.12.2007, at 15:06, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > But you could > write some kind of slurp script easy enough to occasionally pull CDR > records into OGo. Well, some kind of almost-live access would be pretty cool. Eg if you are on a contact, you could see that account XYZ is currently phoning him (and the reverse). Would be pretty neat :-) Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://www.helgehess.eu/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 14:22:55 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:22:55 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo Message-ID: <20071213142256.70C7559C0F@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > On 13.12.2007, at 15:06, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > > But you could > > write some kind of slurp script easy enough to occasionally pull CDR > > records into OGo. > > > Well, some kind of almost-live access would be pretty cool. Eg if you > are on a contact, you could see that account XYZ is currently phoning > him (and the reverse). > Would be pretty neat :-) yeah, would be great, but afaik, the cdr records are written, when the call ended. So would not work via the database, but the Management interface, to which I talk using the AsteriskDialer would provide that information, but I've no idea how to catch that. Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 14:35:58 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:35:58 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo Message-ID: <20071213143559.069C159C18@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > > > > > > Either the asterisk/callweaver is writing the information directly > > > > > > into the ogo database then, or is using an own database, and the > > > > > > info is synced to the ogo database. At least that would be sth. I > > > > > > think I could implement, as I have no idea how to deal with two > > > > > > different databases at the same time, as the telephone numbers have > > > > > > to be compared between these two. > > > > > I think there is nothing bad about storing a call log in the OGo > > > > > database. Though you should choose a better (more unique) table name! > > > > the table name is hardcoded in Asterisk, at least, when I take a look at > > the > > > > config file, then I don't see a configuration option for the table name. > > > If you want CDR data from Asterisk to appear in the OGo database and > > > both are using PostgreSQL there are several pretty simple DB magic > > > tricks to pull that off. > > > The easiest would be to just trigger from the CDR (Call Detail Record) > > > table to create a note (or whatever). It would also allow you to be > > > selective about what CDR data you bought over. > > Many people use freepbx, that I mentioned earlier in an other thread. This > > is based on mysql. I don't know much about mysql, but afaik trigger should > > work there too. > > Ugh. Trigger/SPL support in MySQL is really primitive. But you could > write some kind of slurp script easy enough to occasionally pull CDR > records into OGo. > > > I'm not sure whether I can use such a trigger to pull data > > into an other type of database, running on another host or sth, but > > Not from MySQL. > what a pity, but nevertheless, at least for my first tests, I can use postgresql, as the asterisk CDR database, not a big deal. I just need to figure out,what is needed. Helge, how is the notes to persons added in the pending schema change you mentioned? Maybe I can just use that. Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 14:39:30 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:39:30 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo In-Reply-To: <20071213143559.069C159C18@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20071213143559.069C159C18@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: On 13.12.2007, at 15:35, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > Helge, how is the notes to persons added in the pending schema > change you mentioned? Maybe I can just use that. ---snip--- -- field to connect documents and notes to contacts ALTER TABLE document ADD COLUMN company_id INT NULL; -- prepare for project hierarchies ALTER TABLE project ADD COLUMN parent_project_id INT NULL; ---snap--- Note: this is just in the DB schema, not in the OGo UI or even Logic (I use those in a Java application). Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://www.helgehess.eu/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 15:00:57 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:00:57 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo Message-ID: <20071213150058.4BE6359C20@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > On 13.12.2007, at 15:35, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > > Helge, how is the notes to persons added in the pending schema > > change you mentioned? Maybe I can just use that. > > > ---snip--- > -- field to connect documents and notes to contacts > ALTER TABLE document ADD COLUMN company_id INT NULL; > > -- prepare for project hierarchies > ALTER TABLE project ADD COLUMN parent_project_id INT NULL; > ---snap--- > > Note: this is just in the DB schema, not in the OGo UI or even Logic > (I use those in a Java application). thanks, I just only wanted to know, whether this is useful for the purpose I'm planning. I think I'll add a complete table, for the asterisk call records, and then automatically add a unique sequence on it, somehow ;), my sql knowledge is a bit rusty, need to lookup sql documents. I think the details are much valuable, not necessarily for the call logs attached to persons, i don't need all fields, but with a complete table, I'd be able to add the phone call report interface to the AsteriskUI, which I would like to have too. Sebastian > > Greets, > Helge > -- > Helge Hess > http://www.helgehess.eu/ > -- > OpenGroupware.org Discussion discuss@opengroupware.org > http://mail.opengroupware.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 15:34:56 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:34:56 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo In-Reply-To: <20071213150058.4BE6359C20@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> References: <20071213150058.4BE6359C20@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> Message-ID: <1197560096.6380.16.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net> --=-owzvs00RPSIkw+IXX60/ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I think I'll add a complete table, for the asterisk call records, and the= n=20 > automatically add a unique sequence on it, somehow ;),=20 You just need an INT column whose default value is - nextval('key_generator') - and you'll get a unique OGo object id. > my sql knowledge is a=20 > bit rusty, need to lookup sql documents. I think the details are much=20 > valuable, not necessarily for the call logs attached to persons, i don't=20 > need all fields, but with a complete table, I'd be able to add the phone=20 > call report interface to the AsteriskUI, which I would like to have too. --=-owzvs00RPSIkw+IXX60/ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBHYVEgLRePpNle04MRAuXbAJ9TqW4+sftVhPYP4dZfE9iNbY6GEwCfZi7X HEvkgDdrVSGFSxCylSlVi4E= =oz/R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-owzvs00RPSIkw+IXX60/-- From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 21:41:09 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sauro Saltini) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:41:09 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] IMAP ACL problems Message-ID: <4761A6F5.1050000@shc.it> I've started to implement SOGo in a test environment as I'm very intrested in using TB / Lightning as "fat" client to relpace Outlook / Exchange duo. I've done a fresh install from sources on a Slackware server and, after some initial problems the whole thing is working like a charm (at least the web interface). My IMAP server (also installed from sources on the same host for testing purposes) was Cyrus 2.2.12 (latest stable) authenticating users on OpenLDAP, SOGo also authenticates via LDAP. I've soon realized, playing with the IMAP ACL's for folder sharing, that SOGo follows RFC 4314 for rights, so some of the ACL righs won't be read/set correctly with my Cyrus-imap version (checkboxes remains always unset) - I've also noticed that even the "inverse" demo site suffers the same bug. Replacing Cyrus-imap with 2.3.9 (testing version) which implements RFC4314 ACL's the permission manager for imap folders worked well, except for the "Remove this folder" and "Erase mails from this folder" checkboxes: - Setting "Remove this folder" and applying will result in "t" acl instead of "x" and reopening the form you have: Remove this folder (x) -> unchecked Erase mails from this folder (t) -> checked - Setting "Erase mails from this folder" and applying will result in an empty acl and reopening the form will show: Erase mails from this folder (t) -> unchecked After some search through the sourcecode I've finally found that the Template file (wox) for the form sets uncorrectly the checkbox names (which was my initial guess, but took me some time to work out as I've never looked at a GNUstep application before!). In UI/Templates/MailerUI/UIxMailUserRightsEditor.wox I've changed the checkbox named: "ObjectEraser" to "FolderEraser" and the one named "MailMessageEraser" to "ObjectEraser" according to the rest of logic in "SOGoMailFolder" (_sogoAclsToImapAcls and _imapAclsToSOGoAcls methods) In the meantime I've found some other inconsistencies between "SOGoPermissions.h" declarations and the "SOGoPermissions.m" assignments: in SOGoPermissions.h the "MailRoles" declared are: extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_SeenKeeper; extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_Writer; extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_Poster; extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_Expunger; extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_Creator; extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_Administrator; instead in SOGoPermissions.m I can see: NSString *SOGoMailRole_SeenKeeper = @"MailSeenKeeper"; NSString *SOGoMailRole_Writer = @"MailWriter"; NSString *SOGoMailRole_Poster = @"MailPoster"; NSString *SOGoMailRole_Expunger = @"MailExpunger"; NSString *SOGoMailRole_Administrator = @"MailAdministrator"; NSString *SOGoMailRole_MessageEraser = @"MailMessageEraser"; i.e no value assigned for SOGoMailRole_Creator and no declaration for SOGoMailRole_MessageEraser (which is one of the problematic roles used in the template file I've changed) I don't know which is the current direction of development regarding the "role names", in fact the whole thing can be patched exactly in the opposite way. The point is only about how you want to call in SOGo the "x" and "t" IMAP rights: x -> MailMessageEraser or ObjectEraser t -> ObjectEraser or FolderEraser I hope this can be useful for someone. I'll go on testing SOGo as I think it can be a great solution. I'm sorry I can't help with the development as I know quite nothing about GNUstep and Objective-C. Sauro Saltini. From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 21:38:07 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sauro Saltini) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:38:07 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] IMAP ACL problems Message-ID: <4761A63F.3040901@shc.it> I've started to implement SOGo in a test environment as I'm very intrested in using TB / Lightning as "fat" client to relpace Outlook / Exchange duo. I've done a fresh install from sources on a Slackware server and, after some initial problems the whole thing is working like a charm (at least the web interface). My IMAP server (also installed from sources on the same host for testing purposes) was Cyrus 2.2.12 (latest stable) authenticating users on OpenLDAP, SOGo also authenticates via LDAP. I've soon realized, playing with the IMAP ACL's for folder sharing, that SOGo follows RFC 4314 for rights, so some of the ACL righs won't be read/set correctly with my Cyrus-imap version (checkboxes remains always unset) - I've also noticed that even the "inverse" demo site suffers the same bug. Replacing Cyrus-imap with 2.3.9 (testing version) which implements RFC4314 ACL's the permission manager for imap folders worked well, except for the "Remove this folder" and "Erase mails from this folder" checkboxes: - Setting "Remove this folder" and applying will result in "t" acl instead of "x" and reopening the form you have: Remove this folder (x) -> unchecked Erase mails from this folder (t) -> checked - Setting "Erase mails from this folder" and applying will result in an empty acl and reopening the form will show: Erase mails from this folder (t) -> unchecked After some search through the sourcecode I've finally found that the Template file (wox) for the form sets uncorrectly the checkbox names (which was my initial guess, but took me some time to work out as I've never looked at a GNUstep application before!). In UI/Templates/MailerUI/UIxMailUserRightsEditor.wox I've changed the checkbox named: "ObjectEraser" to "FolderEraser" and the one named "MailMessageEraser" to "ObjectEraser" according to the rest of logic in "SOGoMailFolder" (_sogoAclsToImapAcls and _imapAclsToSOGoAcls methods) In the meantime I've found some other inconsistencies between "SOGoPermissions.h" declarations and the "SOGoPermissions.m" assignments: in SOGoPermissions.h the "MailRoles" declared are: extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_SeenKeeper; extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_Writer; extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_Poster; extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_Expunger; extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_Creator; extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_Administrator; instead in SOGoPermissions.m I can see: NSString *SOGoMailRole_SeenKeeper = @"MailSeenKeeper"; NSString *SOGoMailRole_Writer = @"MailWriter"; NSString *SOGoMailRole_Poster = @"MailPoster"; NSString *SOGoMailRole_Expunger = @"MailExpunger"; NSString *SOGoMailRole_Administrator = @"MailAdministrator"; NSString *SOGoMailRole_MessageEraser = @"MailMessageEraser"; i.e no value assigned for SOGoMailRole_Creator and no declaration for SOGoMailRole_MessageEraser (which is one of the problematic roles used in the template file I've changed) I don't know which is the current direction of development regarding the "role names", in fact the whole thing can be patched exactly in the opposite way. The point is only about how you want to call in SOGo the "x" and "t" IMAP rights: x -> MailMessageEraser or ObjectEraser t -> ObjectEraser or FolderEraser I hope this can be useful for someone. I'll go on testing SOGo as I think it can be a great solution. I'm sorry I can't help with the development as I know quite nothing about GNUstep and Objective-C. Sauro Saltini. From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 22:13:38 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sauro Saltini) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:13:38 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] IMAP ACL problems Message-ID: <4761AE92.4080307@shc.it> I've started to implement SOGo in a test environment as I'm very intrested in using TB / Lightning as "fat" client to relpace Outlook / Exchange duo. I've done a fresh install from sources on a Slackware server and, after some initial problems the whole thing is working like a charm (at least the web interface). My IMAP server (also installed from sources on the same host for testing purposes) was Cyrus 2.2.12 (latest stable) authenticating users on OpenLDAP, SOGo also authenticates via LDAP. I've soon realized, playing with the IMAP ACL's for folder sharing, that SOGo follows RFC 4314 for rights, so some of the ACL righs won't be read/set correctly with my Cyrus-imap version (checkboxes remains always unset) - I've also noticed that even the "inverse" demo site suffers the same bug. Replacing Cyrus-imap with 2.3.9 (testing version) which implements RFC4314 ACL's the permission manager for imap folders worked well, except for the "Remove this folder" and "Erase mails from this folder" checkboxes: - Setting "Remove this folder" and applying will result in "t" acl instead of "x" and reopening the form you have: Remove this folder (x) -> unchecked Erase mails from this folder (t) -> checked - Setting "Erase mails from this folder" and applying will result in an empty acl and reopening the form will show: Erase mails from this folder (t) -> unchecked After some search through the sourcecode I've finally found that the Template file (wox) for the form sets uncorrectly the checkbox names (which was my initial guess, but took me some time to work out as I've never looked at a GNUstep application before!). In UI/Templates/MailerUI/UIxMailUserRightsEditor.wox I've changed the checkbox named: "ObjectEraser" to "FolderEraser" and the one named "MailMessageEraser" to "ObjectEraser" according to the rest of logic in "SOGoMailFolder" (_sogoAclsToImapAcls and _imapAclsToSOGoAcls methods) In the meantime I've found some other inconsistencies between "SOGoPermissions.h" declarations and the "SOGoPermissions.m" assignments: in SOGoPermissions.h the "MailRoles" declared are: extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_SeenKeeper; extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_Writer; extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_Poster; extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_Expunger; extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_Creator; extern NSString *SOGoMailRole_Administrator; instead in SOGoPermissions.m I can see: NSString *SOGoMailRole_SeenKeeper = @"MailSeenKeeper"; NSString *SOGoMailRole_Writer = @"MailWriter"; NSString *SOGoMailRole_Poster = @"MailPoster"; NSString *SOGoMailRole_Expunger = @"MailExpunger"; NSString *SOGoMailRole_Administrator = @"MailAdministrator"; NSString *SOGoMailRole_MessageEraser = @"MailMessageEraser"; i.e no value assigned for SOGoMailRole_Creator and no declaration for SOGoMailRole_MessageEraser (which is one of the problematic roles used in the template file I've changed) I don't know which is the current direction of development regarding the "role names", in fact the whole thing can be patched exactly in the opposite way. The point is only about how you want to call in SOGo the "x" and "t" IMAP rights: x -> MailMessageEraser or ObjectEraser t -> ObjectEraser or FolderEraser I hope this can be useful for someone. I'll go on testing SOGo as I think it can be a great solution. I'm sorry I can't help with the development as I know quite nothing about GNUstep and Objective-C. Sauro Saltini. From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 22:23:58 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:23:58 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] IMAP ACL problems In-Reply-To: <4761A6F5.1050000@shc.it> References: <4761A6F5.1050000@shc.it> Message-ID: On 13.12.2007, at 22:41, Sauro Saltini wrote: > I've started to implement SOGo in a test environment as I'm very > intrested in using TB / Lightning as "fat" client to relpace Outlook / > Exchange duo. Not sure why you posted that mail 3 times ;-) Anyways, such questions are better put on the sogo@opengroupware.org mailing list. (some relevant people are probably not on the discuss list) Thanks, Helge -- Helge Hess http://www.helgehess.eu/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Thu Dec 13 22:26:14 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sauro Saltini) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:26:14 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] IMAP ACL problems In-Reply-To: References: <4761A6F5.1050000@shc.it> Message-ID: <4761B186.70608@shc.it> Sorry for multiple posts, and for posting on the wrong list... I'll repost on sogo list as you suggested. Many thanks. Sauro. Helge Hess ha scritto: > On 13.12.2007, at 22:41, Sauro Saltini wrote: >> I've started to implement SOGo in a test environment as I'm very >> intrested in using TB / Lightning as "fat" client to relpace Outlook / >> Exchange duo. > > Not sure why you posted that mail 3 times ;-) Anyways, such questions > are better put on the sogo@opengroupware.org mailing list. (some > relevant people are probably not on the discuss list) > > Thanks, > Helge From discuss@opengroupware.org Fri Dec 14 07:10:57 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Sebastian Reitenbach) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 08:10:57 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] phone call information to contacts in ogo Message-ID: <20071214071057.D087859E53@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> discuss@opengroupware.org wrote: > > I think I'll add a complete table, for the asterisk call records, and then > > automatically add a unique sequence on it, somehow ;), > > You just need an INT column whose default value is - > nextval('key_generator') - and you'll get a unique OGo object id. I think that is exactly what I was looking for, I'll play a bit with it over the weekend. thanks a lot Sebastian From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 17 04:11:43 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Mark Pavlichuk) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:11:43 +1000 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Thoughts on marketing Message-ID: <4765F6FF.6040100@internode.on.net> I'm studying the CTI dialer stuff, Funambol and Google Maps integration (after I heard about it on the list) because I plan to use it as part of a "marketing strategy". My customers are small/medium businesses, and I'd like to get them more excited about trying open source software. This stuff is interesting even to your average person, not to mention geeks... which is strange thing for groupware suite features. I began thinking it might be possible for the OGo project itself to market itself ie. generate interest at strategic times. Why bother with that kind of thing? If OGo generates more interest perhaps the Sunbird guys would be more interested in making their software talk OGo/GroupDAV... perhaps more package maintainers from various Linux distros will feel inclined to giftwrap OGo. Or perhaps not... Is it a fishing trip that isn't worth the price of the bait? -Mark ps. Some other interesting/impressive tech I'm looking at : virtualbox (VERY user friendly virtualisation), backuppc (backup to rsync and/or tape... latest version completely managed via web interface... lots of neat features), alfresco CMS (currently playing with scanned docs bundled together with OCRed data into "searchable PDFs"... and getting alfresco to index these). Anybody know of anything else worth "showing off"? From discuss@opengroupware.org Sun Dec 16 19:54:34 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:54:34 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Thoughts on marketing In-Reply-To: <4765F6FF.6040100@internode.on.net> References: <4765F6FF.6040100@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <4012-SnapperMsg05076A73C38B3302@[75.219.11.162]> >My customers are small/medium >businesses, and I'd like to get them more excited about trying open >source software. This stuff is interesting even to your average person, >not to mention geeks... which is strange thing for groupware suite >features. I don't know. :) I think groupware suites are pretty interesting. They offer solutions to most of the problems small/medium organizations have, the hard part is getting them to think of their issues as a totallity. > I began thinking it might be possible for the OGo project >itself to market itself ie. generate interest at strategic times. Sure. > Why bother with that kind of thing? If OGo generates more interest >perhaps the Sunbird guys would be more interested in making their >software talk OGo/GroupDAV... perhaps more package maintainers from Sure, in general more users == more developers. >various Linux distros will feel inclined to giftwrap OGo. Packaging certainly requires users as you really need a steward for each distribution. For instance installing on openSUSE is easy, because I've used the packages over and over... And contributed back the results. But it seems like Debian users hit lots of issues. >Or perhaps not... Is it a fishing trip \>that isn't worth the price of the bait? Certainly is worth the trouble. What specifically do you have in mind? Personally I think the best marketing is always good documentation. At least at first. Steering people toqards something that then isn't documented usually fails. From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 17 10:36:39 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Mark Pavlichuk) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:36:39 +1000 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: Thoughts on marketing Message-ID: <47665137.9050307@internode.on.net> >>/Or perhaps not... Is it a fishing trip />>that isn't worth the price of the bait? > >Certainly is worth the trouble. What specifically do you have in mind? > >Personally I think the best marketing is always good documentation. At >least at first. Steering people toqards something that then isn't >documented usually fails. Documentation is a part of it... and I certainly intend to help there. There are a number of marketing concepts/rules-of-thumb and "painting the steps" is one. ie. highlighting what the "customer" wants to do so it's easy for them, and also highlighting the steps involved for them to do what YOU want... Clear and simple beginner documentation is of course important,and...(?) Marketing a commercial product might involve introducing extensions to the current product, and marketing related products. Skyrix would want to do this... but for the OSS project? Perhaps strategic invitations for help with packaging and docs? Perhaps pointers to commercial help? What does OGo and its supporters need? I guess that's something ongoing that requires serious thought, and developing a collective understanding of what is important to individuals. There are other concepts... I wish I payed more attention to the family members I have who are involved in the marketing game. It's Christmas soon so I'll have an opportunity to talk about it. I remember another important concept.. that is - every person involved should understand that they are part of the "public image", and it's important that they understand that marketing is (and already has been!) part of their role by default. I guess this folds back to the "collective understanding" thing. Hmmm... I also remember something about demographically breaking down your market so you can think about how to target subgroups. I'm sure most people have abilities the project could use... even novice users - eg. project advocacy. Anyway, I was only trying to stimulate discussion about what the people making up the project want, and discussing if it's possible and useful for "marketing" to be another tool in the bag. -Mark From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 17 04:06:45 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 23:06:45 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: Thoughts on marketing In-Reply-To: <47665137.9050307@internode.on.net> References: <47665137.9050307@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <1197864405.6346.28.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net> > >>/Or perhaps not... Is it a fishing trip > />>that isn't worth the price of the bait > >Certainly is worth the trouble. What specifically do you have in mind > >Personally I think the best marketing is always good documentation. At > >least at first. Steering people towards something that then isn't > >documented usually fails. > Documentation is a part of it... and I certainly intend to help there. > There are a number of marketing concepts/rules-of-thumb and "painting > the steps" is one. ie. highlighting what the "customer" wants to do so > it's easy for them, and also highlighting the steps involved for them to > do what YOU want... Well.... I want them to send me bundles of cash. Crisp large denominations preferably. :) > Clear and simple beginner documentation is of course > important,and...(?) As a note, in case you missed it, there is the beginnings of a *USER* guide at http://www.opengroupware.org/en/users/docs/ogo-userguide-0.9.pdf There was a plone site related to the manual project but it now seems defunct. Even loading the document fails for me, but I have a copy about somewhere. > Marketing a commercial product might involve > introducing extensions to the current product, and marketing related > products. Skyrix would want to do this... but for the OSS project? I'd concentrate thinking about the OSS project; whatever a commercial entity decides to do or not do is simply what they decide to do or not do. Entirely outside our brief. > Perhaps strategic invitations for help with packaging and docs? I'm not sure what a "strategic invitations" is, but if it means just contacting people and asking them to help I can promise you an astronomical failure rate. Of course, asking is also free, so... > Perhaps pointers to commercial help? Already provided. > What does OGo and its supporters need? Developers, developers, and more developers. :) Seriously. OGo is a great product but the pace of development is nearly stagnant. One of the most important factors in a project acquiring both new users and new developers is to have strong life signs, so you get into a kind of chicken / egg situation. Of course development is facilitated by documentation. Currently developing in / around OGo involves a great deal of grunt work where one has to reverse engineer and deconstruct what is going on in the existing code base. I've come to be quite fond of Objective-C with it's bundles and categories.... but those same features can also make figuring out where the *@&&^$@ behavior is coming from quite exasperating. > I remember another important concept.. that is - every person involved > should understand that they are part of the "public image", and it's > important that they understand that marketing is (and already has been!) > part of their role by default. I guess this folds back to the > "collective understanding" thing. Eh, I'm not much for terms like "collective understanding", but I don't think we have much of a problem with cranky or off-putting behavior here. Also marketing a product, implying that you have resources to throw at the problem, is quite different than marketing a project where you have nothing more than volunteered resources. I just don't think much from A carries over to B, having seen this type of thread in various places several times. > Hmmm... I also remember something about demographically breaking > down your market so you can think about how to target subgroups. I'm > sure most people have abilities the project could use... even novice > users - eg. project advocacy. It isn't what skills people have or don't have, it is a question of what skills [and the related time] they are interested in investing in the project. > Anyway, I was only trying to stimulate discussion about what the > people making up the project want, and discussing if it's possible > and useful for "marketing" to be another tool in the bag. From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 17 14:38:56 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:38:56 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] Re: code documentation [Was: Re: [OGo-Documentation] code documentation] In-Reply-To: <672636F0-E9C7-4E41-B791-87D2B4A23AC5@opengroupware.org> References: <20071217071338.1CEF45A485@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> <672636F0-E9C7-4E41-B791-87D2B4A23AC5@opengroupware.org> Message-ID: <1197902336.8605.30.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net> --=-lC1fzQoCupGY+c6a/LwZ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I'm not sure whether its worth the effort. I dislike talking about =20 > thing being done before they are actually done, but at least I am =20 > shifting most OGo developments to JOPE/Java. =46rom snippets I've seen I wondered if that was true. > And while JOPE also lacks high-level documentation, the source code =20 > itself is now pretty well documented (I'm getting older too and need =20 > to document things to remember stuff myself ;-). Same here! > What this implies should be discussed on discuss, just wanted to raise =20 > the point that the existing codebase might be become important for =20 > starters in the future ;-) If OGo moves toward Java I think that would be a generally good thing; using a more "modern" [or perceived as modern] platform can only help. Not to mention having better tools. Has any of the OGo core functionality (Logic) been ported over to Jope? (is it "Jope" or "JOPE"?). =20 Just curious because I've been building on the zOGI API with one eye on the possibility that someday I may just have to port the backend to something else; that in itself doesn't look that hard (as far as "Logic" is concerned) but I'd loose all the other nice stuff OGo provides like DAV/GroupDAV (IMO the really hard hard) and thus Funambol. I've also played with building a general-purpose ASP.NET WebUI using the gaia [http://ajaxwidgets.com/] widgets (again on the zOGI API as I didn't want to get too welded to one backend). --=-lC1fzQoCupGY+c6a/LwZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBHZooALRePpNle04MRAtjNAJwNU3xzLyTpUQMK+1FSqlPRE3PfowCeIFrn 32gRfi6GpW1ql17ofSHivtc= =Zygk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-lC1fzQoCupGY+c6a/LwZ-- From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 17 14:38:39 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:38:39 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo Directions / Java Message-ID: <9B941B7B-883C-4EE6-88D6-DED8A663814E@opengroupware.org> Hi, from the doc list: ---snip--- I dislike talking about thing being done before they are actually done, but at least I am shifting most OGo developments to JOPE/Java. ... What this implies should be discussed on discuss, just wanted to raise the point that the existing codebase might be become important for starters in the future ;-) ---snap--- Anyways. Feel free to ask any questions ;-) The current situation is that I have rewritten a big part of OGo Logic/ DocAPI in Java in 2007. I have a few custom play-stuff apps running on top of that (eg a HighRise like UI) and I'm currently doing a midsize project which uses that. Most likely I'm going to commit the code to a public repository beginning of next year. Its much more performant than LSLogic (not because its Java, but because its designed from scratch ;-) and also has some neat enhancements. There is no real UI yet, but something which resembles the "old" OGo should be pretty easy to do. [Note: my work so far attempts to be fully compatible with ObjC OGo, ie database schema and doc storage] It could be the basis for something like OGo 6.0 ;-) Hence, most likely I won't put a lot of effort into the Objective-C parts besides maintenance until JOPE replicas work. One of the biggest issues I have with ObjC is that the Apple version and the GNU ones are bound to diverge (eg Apple with GC and ObjC 2.0 features ...), and that gnustep-base goals do not match my requirements on API stability and OS integration (and lF is a dead end anyways). I'm not perfectly happy with all this but I think for 'developers' things will get much easier. Machines are fast enough for Java now and Java itself is now GPL, removing that dependency. Well, as mentioned, feel free to ask any questions ;-) Thanks, Helge -- Helge Hess http://www.helgehess.eu/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 17 14:52:53 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:52:53 -0500 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo Directions / Java In-Reply-To: <9B941B7B-883C-4EE6-88D6-DED8A663814E@opengroupware.org> References: <9B941B7B-883C-4EE6-88D6-DED8A663814E@opengroupware.org> Message-ID: <1197903173.8605.36.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net> --=-1sv/OzGLyXBJYUNAuU8Y Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Anyways. Feel free to ask any questions ;-) Already did, and you already answered them. :) > The current situation is that I have rewritten a big part of OGo Logic/=20 > DocAPI in Java in 2007.=20 Great. That is a huge relief. > I have a few custom play-stuff apps running on =20 > top of that (eg a HighRise like UI) and I'm currently doing a midsize =20 > project which uses that. > Most likely I'm going to commit the code to a public repository =20 > beginning of next year.=20 Awesome. Guess it is time to read up on Java, lucky for me it looks about 2 centimeters to the left of .NET. > There is no real UI yet, but something which resembles the "old" OGo =20 > should be pretty easy to do. Yep. > [Note: my work so far attempts to be fully compatible with ObjC OGo, =20 > ie database schema and doc storage] Excellent. > It could be the basis for something like OGo 6.0 ;-) Just a minor bump in version number. :) > Hence, most likely I won't put a lot of effort into the Objective-C =20 > parts besides maintenance until JOPE replicas work. > One of the biggest issues I have with ObjC is that the Apple version =20 > and the GNU ones are bound to diverge (eg Apple with GC and ObjC 2.0 =20 > features ...), and that gnustep-base goals do not match my =20 > requirements on API stability and OS integration (and lF is a dead end =20 > anyways). That thought has been bugging me too. That and the general shortage of Obj-C savvy people. All the Obj-C people are so old. ;) > I'm not perfectly happy with all this but I think for 'developers' =20 > things will get much easier. Machines are fast enough for Java now and =20 > Java itself is now GPL, removing that dependency. --=-1sv/OzGLyXBJYUNAuU8Y Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBHZo1FLRePpNle04MRAjxQAJ9kjpaNyaVH5k+NOk5hxSPszNX+8ACfQrwQ SHfSyqNnM+Rv/A5WPihFd0s= =Uydv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-1sv/OzGLyXBJYUNAuU8Y-- From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 17 14:58:03 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:58:03 +0100 Subject: OGo/J Re: [OGo-Discuss] Re: code documentation [Was: Re: [OGo-Documentation] code documentation] In-Reply-To: <1197902336.8605.30.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net> References: <20071217071338.1CEF45A485@smtp.l00-bugdead-prods.de> <672636F0-E9C7-4E41-B791-87D2B4A23AC5@opengroupware.org> <1197902336.8605.30.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net> Message-ID: On 17.12.2007, at 15:38, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > If OGo moves toward Java I think that would be a generally good thing; > using a more "modern" [or perceived as modern] platform can only help. > Not to mention having better tools. Actually I don't think that the Java tools are better for maintaining "stable" products. They are someone better for quickly producing crap ;-) A proper build cycle is as hard with Java. In fact I think that ObjC is better here, producing real binaries with proper makefiles. BTW: I would LOVE to have GCJ compiled JOPE packages! :-) > Has any of the OGo core functionality (Logic) been ported over to > Jope? Yes, I have rewritten a pretty big part of Logic in 2007, though its not complete. (I mostly did what I needed for my stuff) I expect to complete most of it in Q1/Q2 2008 as part of an ongoing project. > (is it "Jope" or "JOPE"?). Its JOPE (SOPE was Skyrix Object Publishing Environment after ZOPE, well and JOPE is supposed to mean Java OPE). Anyways, I'm not attached to it at all ... Definitely not a good marketing term. But then, I don't really want to market it ;-) > Just curious because I've been building on the zOGI API with one eye > on > the possibility that someday I may just have to port the backend to > something else; that in itself doesn't look that hard (as far as > "Logic" is concerned) but I'd loose all the other nice stuff OGo > provides like DAV/GroupDAV (IMO the really hard hard) and thus > Funambol. I don't fully understand the content of this part. Yes, you can still use ZideStore since what I did so far should be compatible with the ObjC frontends (advanced stuff obviously can't be exposed, eg I did some things on permissions). Wrt to DAV/GroupDAV in Java, I think it should be reasonably easy to rewrite that in JOPE (but so far I did not do DAV in JOPE). > I've also played with building a general-purpose ASP.NET WebUI using > the > gaia [http://ajaxwidgets.com/] widgets (again on the zOGI API as I > didn't want to get too welded to one backend). Yes, I also explored a few things. In fact JOPE has a few quite cool features for doing AJAX (eg refreshing parts of a page component). Though I would probably start with an old-style UI to get things running quickly (AJAX apps _are_ much harder than just doing a bunch of HTML pages). Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://www.helgehess.eu/ From discuss@opengroupware.org Mon Dec 17 15:06:16 2007 From: discuss@opengroupware.org (Helge Hess) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:06:16 +0100 Subject: [OGo-Discuss] OGo Directions / Java In-Reply-To: <1197903173.8605.36.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net> References: <9B941B7B-883C-4EE6-88D6-DED8A663814E@opengroupware.org> <1197903173.8605.36.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net> Message-ID: On 17.12.2007, at 15:52, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > That thought has been bugging me too. That and the general shortage > of > Obj-C savvy people. > > All the Obj-C people are so old. ;) Nah. Cocoa is a _very_ nice platform and there are quite a few developers (just consider how many kids have Macs now and the 'old' argument is really bound to become superflous ;-). But most things which make it nice is Mac only ... (nothing against Mac clients, but this hurts when doing server applications). > Guess it is time to read up on Java, lucky for me it looks > about 2 centimeters to the left of .NET. Its not important right now, but actually I wondered whether one should do all this in Java *and* in Mono. They are basically the same crap and developer spread is almost 50/50. Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://www.helgehess.eu/ From dis